Today we have a breathless report by Dave Lindorff of "The Nation" which is complete with a former Air Force Colonel who taught at the National War College declaring that a planned naval deployment is "very important evidence" of war planning. Then, of course, there’s the clincher. "This is very serious," said Ray McGovern, a former CIA threat-assessment analyst who got early word of the Navy officers’ complaints about the sudden deployment orders. Show me a sailor who wouldn’t bitch about depolying and I’ll show you an uncommon sailor. But more importantly, don’t forget it’s Ray McGovern saying this. With that as a background, let’s take a look at Lindorff’s opening 3 paragraphs where all the claims are made: As reports circulate of a sharp debate within the White House over possible US military action against Iran and its nuclear enrichment facilities, The Nation has learned that the Bush Administration and the Pentagon have moved up the deployment of a major "strike group" of ships, including the nuclear aircraft carrier Eisenhower as well as a cruiser, destroyer, frigate, submarine escort and supply ship, to head for the Persian Gulf, just off Iran’s western coast. This information follows a report in the current issue of Time magazine, both online and in print, that a group of ships capable of mining harbors has received orders to be ready to sail for the Persian Gulf by October 1. As Time writes in its cover story, "What Would War Look Like?," evidence of the forward deployment of minesweepers and word that the chief of naval operations had asked for a reworking of old plans for mining Iranian harbors "suggest that a much discussed-but until now largely theoretical-prospect has become real: that the U.S. may be preparing for war with Iran." According to Lieut. Mike Kafka, a spokesman at the headquarters of the Second Fleet, based in Norfolk, Virginia, the Eisenhower Strike Group, bristling with Tomahawk cruise missiles, has received orders to depart the United States in a little over a week. Other official sources in the public affairs office of the Navy Department at the Pentagon confirm that this powerful armada is scheduled to arrive off the coast of Iran on or around October 21. War, huh? Could it be anything else? http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Pentagon_moves_to_secondstage_plann… related stories http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Intelligence_officials_doubt_Iran_u… http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Backchannels_used_to_bypass_U.S._govern… Several U.S. and foreign intelligence sources, along with investigators, say an Iranian exile with ties to Iran-Contra peddled a bizarre tale of stolen uranium to governments on both sides of the Atlantic in the spring and summer of 2003. The story that was peddled — which detailed how an Iranian intelligence team infiltrated Iraq prior to the start of the war in March of 2003, and stole enriched uranium to use in their own nuclear weapons program — was part of an attempt to implicate both countries in a WMD plot. It later emerged that the Iranian exile was trying to collect money for his tales, sources say. Advertisement By all credible accounts, the source of this dubious tale was Manucher Ghorbanifar, an Iranian arms dealer who used middle-men and cut-outs to create the appearance of several sources. Ghorbanifar played a key role in the Iran-Contra scandal that threatened to take down the Reagan administration, in which the U.S. sold arms to Iran and diverted the proceeds to Nicaraguan militants. While the various threads of the larger story of Ghorbanifar and his intelligence peddling began in December of 2001, meetings in Paris in 2003 are far more important in illustrating — as a microcosm — the larger difficulties faced in untangling the facts relating to global intelligence trafficking. Tall Tale of Uranium During the spring and summer of 2003, Congressman Curt Weldon (R-PA) made several visits to Paris to meet with a source believed to have important military intelligence information. Unbeknownst to Weldon, the informant, who he would dub simply "Ali," was already peddling a tale of stolen uranium traveling between Iraq and Iran that had been deemed false by most intelligence agencies. As reported by American Prospect and confirmed by intelligence sources, Ali is a pseudonym used to identify a former minister in the Shah’s Iran, Fereidoun Mahdavi. Mahdavi himself is a secretary to Ghorbanifar, the originating source of the uranium fable. The American Prospect’s reporters wrote, "’Ali’ is actually a cipher for Manucher Ghorbanifar, the notorious Iranian arms dealer and accused intelligence fabricator — and the potential instrument of another potentially dangerous manipulation of American policy in the Persian Gulf region." The Washington Post discusses Ali as follows: "’These secrets,’ he says, come from ‘an impeccable clandestine source,’ whom Weldon code-names ‘Ali,’ an Iranian exile living in Paris who is a close associate of Manucher Gorbanifar. Gorbanifar is a well-known Iranian exile whom the CIA branded as a fabricator during the 1980s but who was used by the Reagan White House as a middleman for the arms-for-hostages deal with Iran." According to several intelligence sources on both sides of the Atlantic, the tale that "Ali" tells Weldon and others was as intricate as it was false. "Ali provided information that indicated Iranian intelligence had sent a team to Baghdad to extract highly enriched uranium (weapons grade) from a stockpile hidden by Saddam Hussein," one intelligence source said. Ali asserted that an Iranian intelligence team had infiltrated Iraq prior to the start of the war and stole enriched uranium to use in their own nuclear weapons program, sources say. Ghorbanifar said "the team successfully extracted the stockpile but on the way back to Iran contracted radiation poisoning," one source remarked. Upon learning this information Weldon says that he immediately notified then-CIA director George Tenet. "Tenet appeared interested, even enthusiastic about evaluating Ali and establishing a working relationship with him," Weldon wrote in his book, Countdown to Terror. "He agreed to send his top spy, Stephen Kappes, the deputy director of operations, along with me to Paris for another debriefing of Ali. "On the day of our scheduled second meeting with Ali in Paris, Kappes bowed out, claiming that "other commitments" compelled him to cancel," Weldon continued. "Later, the CIA claimed to have met with Ali independently. But I discovered this to be untrue… Incredibly, I learned that the CIA had apparently asked French intelligence to silence Ali." But according to the Prospect and several sources in intelligence abroad, the CIA did investigate, as did the Department of Defense. According to the Post, the agency tasked then-Paris station chief Bill Murray with investigating the claim, who ultimately found Ali to be a "fabricator." The CIA, understanding Ali to be Ghorbanifar, did not think him a credible source. Intelligence sources and a source close to the UN Security Council tell RAW STORY Murray took Ali (either Ghorbanifar or his agent) to Iraq in order to retrace the footsteps of the alleged mission in which the uranium was stolen from Saddam’s own stockpile and taken back to Iran. In the end, sources say, the entire event proved a wild goose chase because Ali’s earlier clarity all but evaporated. "Soon it became apparent that Ali and his sources were fabricators and were trying to extract large sums of money," one intelligence source said. Murray says he did meet with the source, but was not part of a trip to Iraq. "I did not make any such trip," Murray said. "I met with the source, found that he was not credible, forwarded the information he gave us to Washington, where it was thoroughly analyzed by many people and found not to add anything new to what we knew about Iran. The sensational charges that the source made could not be substantiated." Weldon’s office declined to comment for the record after several extended conversations. RAW STORY delayed the article for a day to give Weldon’s office a chance to comment. The neoconservative movement has long expressed an inherent distrust of the CIA. Many neoconservatives note that the agency undercounted Russia’s nuclear stockpile in the waning days of the Soviet Union, and believe that it routinely underestimates foreign threats. Weldon, who had been led to believe the CIA never opened an investigation into the information he provided, took his case directly to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld then pressured the CIA to investigate further. "CIA reluctantly, after pressure from Rumsfeld, followed up by detaching one of their weapons experts from the team that was hunting WMD in Iraq," one former CIA officer who asked to remain anonymous said. Sources say that this second investigation resulted in another wild goose chase. The question of motive, however, seems to either have been entirely missed or simply glossed over. Weldon seen caught in web By all accounts, Weldon seems to be more of an innocent bystander taken in by an internationally known con-man and the lure of spook-like activities than an inside player with an agenda or material participant in these events. The Ali composite seems to have used Weldon as a conduit by which to provide the CIA with information. There was good reason to be cautious of Manucher Ghorbanifahr, who, along with his secretary, made up the "cipher" of Ali. The CIA had already had issued two burn notices against Ghorbanifahr as early as 1984 and his role in Iran-Contra as a middleman between the hardline neoconservative and another Iran-Contra figure, Michael Ledeen. In his book, Weldon said he met Ghorbanifahr after being approached by a Democratic congressman. "On March 7, 2003, a former Democratic member of Congress and my good friend Ron … read more »

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  My prediction….take it for what it’s worth…. ‘Round about October, either we will provoke Iran into attacking us (one of our ships on station perhaps?), thus "justifying" a response, or we will "create" a suitable incident, blame Iran, and attack. GWB has made up his mind that Iran must be dealt with, regardless of what they’re *really* doing.  And, we now know that we can’t believe a word he says about them, either. He’s already proven that far too many times! But, I agree that something is up.  There’s too much activity to NOT have something in the works… I feel for our fighting men and women who will once again be thrown into a war….. And folks, this one could be *very* nasty. Think of it this way….ol’ GWB’s got him a big ol’ stick, and he’s a fixin’ to stick it into a hornet’s nest and give it a good ol’ Texas scrubbin’. Mike

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The Librarian posted: (snip).. Don’t you EVER post your source references ?

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courageously avow: >  My prediction….take it for what it’s worth…. >’Round about October, either we will provoke Iran into >attacking us (one of our ships on station perhaps?), thus >"justifying" a response, or we will "create" a suitable >incident, blame Iran, and attack. >GWB has made up his mind that Iran must be dealt with, >regardless of what they’re *really* doing.  And, we now know >that we can’t believe a word he says about them, either. >He’s already proven that far too many times!

He may want to wait until he’s got the pincers on both sides of Iran stabilized so he can focus his resources.  He also has to be sure he has some Western backing because, like Hitler did in Europe, he could be extending his reach more than the rest of the constituents and there supporters will continue to tolerate.  We all know how that turned out for Germany. >But, I agree that something is up.  There’s too much >activity to NOT have something in the works… >I feel for our fighting men and women who will once again be >thrown into a war….. >And folks, this one could be *very* nasty. >Think of it this way….ol’ GWB’s got him a big ol’ stick, >and he’s a fixin’ to stick it into a hornet’s nest and give >it a good ol’ Texas scrubbin’. >Mike

– Ken Wilson

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"Today we have a breathless report by Dave Lindorff of "The Nation" " Billy Bob – that means Today as on the day I posted and it means in "The Nation" a publication easily found by Google. First line of my post lists author and publication. Do you want me to spoon feed it to you too?

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> He may want to wait until he’s got the pincers on both sides of Iran > stabilized so he can focus his resources.  He also has to be sure he > has some Western backing because, like Hitler did in Europe, he could > be extending his reach more than the rest of the constituents and > there supporters will continue to tolerate.  We all know how that > turned out for Germany.

Maybe you could go into more detail on how Hitler’s "constituents" stopped tolerating his military adventures and thus brought about his downfall, as historians seem to have missed that interpretation of WWII. On second thought, no, don’t do that.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He may want to wait until he’s got the pincers on both sides of Iran > stabilized so he can focus his resources.  He also has to be sure he > has some Western backing because, like Hitler did in Europe, he could > be extending his reach more than the rest of the constituents and > there supporters will continue to tolerate.  We all know how that > turned out for Germany. >Maybe you could go into more detail on how Hitler’s "constituents" stopped >tolerating his military adventures and thus brought about his downfall, as >historians seem to have missed that interpretation of WWII. >On second thought, no, don’t do that.

Don’t get him started.  He’ll start telling you about how Adolf Hitler the artist was misunderstood, and not as bad as GWB.

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adolph hitler was a bad artist no matter what else you think of him

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  My prediction….take it for what it’s worth…. > ‘Round about October, either we will provoke Iran into attacking us (one > of our ships on station perhaps?), thus "justifying" a response, or we > will "create" a suitable incident, blame Iran, and attack. > GWB has made up his mind that Iran must be dealt with, regardless of > what they’re *really* doing.  And, we now know that we can’t believe a > word he says about them, either. He’s already proven that far too many > times! > But, I agree that something is up.  There’s too much activity to NOT > have something in the works… > I feel for our fighting men and women who will once again be thrown into > a war….. > And folks, this one could be *very* nasty. > Think of it this way….ol’ GWB’s got him a big ol’ stick, and he’s a > fixin’ to stick it into a hornet’s nest and give it a good ol’ Texas > scrubbin’. > Mike

Fantasize on, pal. He’s politically dead meat in a stinky stick. D.C. won’t back him and the populace is a red cunt hair from a 1968 re-do. This time, there’s no domestic National Guard left to send in. Keep your lazier eye on the economic bad news en route. That’s the REAL story. That fuckwad’s gaming of the pentagon for the media is just a diversion. What people REALLY care about is their wallet. The End.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He may want to wait until he’s got the pincers on both sides of Iran > stabilized so he can focus his resources.  He also has to be sure he > has some Western backing because, like Hitler did in Europe, he could > be extending his reach more than the rest of the constituents and > there supporters will continue to tolerate.  We all know how that > turned out for Germany. > Maybe you could go into more detail on how Hitler’s "constituents" stopped > tolerating his military adventures and thus brought about his downfall, as > historians seem to have missed that interpretation of WWII. > On second thought, no, don’t do that.

35% is not a majority. but combine that with some hysteria and some SS the you can produce a 90% majority. In a lot of ways this story reminds me of the way Bush enflamed Congress to give him over 90% vote to attack Iraq. Also the way he is oving to consolidate power into the executive branch. anyway for your edification meet the German Resistance http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july2.html try to ignore the music and below a short version of how Hitler came to power using fear and then terror. Hitler foiled all attempts to gain a majority in parliament and on that basis convinced President Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag again. Elections were scheduled for early March, but on February 27, 1933, the Reichstag building was set on fire. Since a Dutch independent communist was found in the building, the fire was blamed on a Communist plot to which the government reacted with the Reichstag Fire Decree of February 28, which suspended basic rights, including habeas corpus. Under the provisions of this decree, the Communist Party and other groups were suppressed, and Communist functionaries and deputies were arrested, put to flight, or murdered. A key element of Hitler’s appeal was his ability to convey a sense of offended national pride caused by the Treaty of Versailles imposed on the defeated German Empire by the Western Allies. Germany had lost economically important territory in Europe along with its colonies and in admitting to sole responsibility for the war had agreed to pay a huge reparations bill totaling 32 billion mark. Most Germans bitterly resented these terms but early Nazi attempts to gain support by blaming these humiliations on "international Jewry" were not particularly successful with the electorate. The party learned quickly and soon a more subtle propaganda emerged, combining anti-Semitism with an attack on the failures of the "Weimar system" and the parties supporting it. Having failed in overthrowing the Republic by a coup, Hitler now pursued the "strategy of legality": this meant formally adhering to the rules of the Weimar Republic until he had legally gained power and then transforming liberal democracy into a Nazi dictatorship. Some party members, especially in the paramilitary SA, opposed this strategy and Ernst R

"The United States and France have reached a deal on a Lebanon resolution for consideration by the United Nations Security Council, French and US diplomats confirmed Saturday." I din’t know France was involved … Unless they provided more missiles ! —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

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> "The United States and France have reached a deal on a Lebanon > resolution for consideration by the United Nations Security Council, > French and US diplomats confirmed Saturday." > I din’t know France was involved … Unless they provided > more missiles ! > —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==—- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Why involve the French???? Try experience. Better yet try learning from their experience. Lebanon became part of numerous succeeding empires, among them Syrian, Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Crusader, and Ottoman. Lebanon was part of the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years, but following World War I, the area became a part of the Syrian Mandate of France. France subsequently carved Syria into several ethnic enclaves, Lebanon being the largely Christian area. It also included areas containing many Muslims and Druzes. The French Mandate of Syria was a League of Nations Mandate created after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was split by the Treaty of Versailles. Four mandate territories were created, with the rest of the territory placed under monarchies. The British controlled the Mandates of Palestine and Iraq, while the French controlled the Mandates of Lebanon and Syria. France and Syria signed a Franco-Syrian Treaty of Independence in 1936, but the Mandate continued because France failed to ratify the document. Syria again declared its independence, this time from Vichy France in 1944. [edit] History Following the Sanremo conference and the defeat of King Faisal’s short-lived monarchy at the Battle of Maysalun, the French under General Henri Gouraud subdivided their new mandate of Syria into five states. They were the states of Damascus, Aleppo, Alaouites, Jebel Druze, and Alexandretta (modern-day Hatay). In June, 1922, France established a loose federation between four of the states:Damascus, Aleppo, Alaouites, and Jebel Druze. On December 1, 1924, France united the states of Aleppo and Damascus into the state of Syria, adopting the federal flag (green-white-green with French canton). Jebel Druze was incorporated into the Syrian republic in 1936, and Alaouites in 1937. Alexandretta (Hatay) was handed over to Turkey by the French in 1939 after complaints by Ataturk about the alleged mistreatment of the Turkish population. Syria has not recognized the incorporation of Hatay within Turkey and the issue has been a source of some tension between the two countries. Alaouites Alaouites, or the Alawite State, was a French mandate in the coastal area of present-day Syria after World War I. It was renamed Latakia in 1930 and became part of Syria in 1937. Population was 278,000 in 1930, mostly belonging to the Alawite sect of Shi’a Islam. The collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the war brought on a scramble to take control of various provinces of the empire. France occupied Syria in 1918, and received it as a mandate from the League of Nations on September 2, 1920. Initially it was an autonomous territory under French rule, then declared a state September 29, 1923, with the port city of Latakia as its capital. The country gained independence in 1943, while France was occupied by Germany. The last French troops withdrew in 1946. Lebanon’s unwritten National Pact of 1943 required that its president be a Christian and its prime minister be a Muslim. Lebanon’s history since independence has been marked by alternating periods of political stability and turmoil (including a civil conflict in 1958) interspersed with prosperity built on Beirut’s position as a regional center for finance and trade. The National Pact is an unwritten agreement that laid the foundation of Lebanon and has shaped the country to this day. Following negotiations between the Shi’ite, Sunni, and Maronite leaderships, the National Pact was born in the summer of 1943 allowing Lebanon to be independent. Among the following key points of the agreement are: the Maronites to not seek foreign intervention and accept Lebanon as an "Arab" country, instead of a "Western" one. the Muslims (Shi’ites and Sunnis) to abandon their aspirations to unite with Syria the President of the Republic to always be a Maronite. the President of the Council of Ministers (prime minister) to always be a Sunni. the President of the National Assembly to always be a Shi’ite. Parliament members to be in a ratio of 6:5 in favour of Christians to Muslims. The last point was to be a contentious issue, especially in the Lebanese Civil War, where demographic changes in the 1970s resulted in Maronites making up approximately one-third of the population (compared to 51% in the 1932 census) and the other two-thirds made up of mostly Muslims. As well, Shi’ites as part of this demographic change turned into the largest religious community. This resulted in Maronites having a disproportionate share of the government, which was the main issue in the Lebanese Civil War. so todays events derived froms the result "French Mandate of Syria" As Condi said, "When will we learn?" truly.

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> Why involve the French???? Try experience. Better yet try learning from > their experience.

Oh yea !  What happens when two outside parties intervene:   "France and the United States had drafted a U.N. resolution to bring an end to the   fighting but are now considering changes to overcome Arab criticism that it   favors Israel.   The existing draft would allow Israeli soldiers to stay in the south until an   international force deploys. It calls for a "full cessation of hostilities" and says   Hizbollah must stop all attacks while Israel must halt "offensive military operations." The reply ? .. The Lebanon government wants no UN farce .. it’s military is going to protect Israel ’s boarder with the great talent it has shown  over the past years you bet ! . And Hizbollah can keep the rockets as long as they point in a safe, down range target. Long term results are pretty clear: Signs are already going up in Southern Lebanon for newly expanded Israel homeland homes, shopping centers and gun ranges. *Inlaws that never leave*

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Bush’s desire for war with Iraq predated 9/11.  It was only a matter of time, and 9/11 gave him a window of opportunity.  In order to fool much of the American public, and whip them into a war-frenzy that allowed him to achieve his goal, he simply used cherry-picked "intelligence." Including "intelligence" that some advisors told him was flawed.  No matter, he got what he wanted. I’ve been saying this since before the invasion.  I expect more and more evidence will surface as time progresses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  CIA Warned Bush of No Weapons in Iraq >     Reuters >     Saturday 22 April 2006 >     Washington – The CIA had evidence Iraq possessed no weapons of mass > destruction six months before the 2003 US-led invasion but was ignored by a > White House intent on ousting Saddam Hussein, a former senior CIA official > said according to CBS. >     Tyler Drumheller, who headed CIA covert operations in Europe during the > run-up to the Iraq war, said intelligence opposing administration claims of > a WMD threat came from a top Iraqi official who provided the US spy agency > with other credible information. >     The source "told us that there were no active weapons of mass > destruction programs," Drumheller said in a CBS interview to be aired on > Sunday on the network’s news magazine, "60 Minutes." >     "The (White House) group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq > war came back and said they were no longer interested," he was quoted as > saying in interview excerpts released by CBS on Friday. >     "We said: ‘Well, what about the intel?’ And they said: ‘Well, this > isn’t about intel anymore. This is about regime change’," added Drumheller, > whose CIA operation was assigned the task of debriefing the Iraqi official. >     He was the latest former US official to accuse the White House of > setting an early course toward war in Iraq and ignoring intelligence that > conflicted with its aim. >     CBS said the CIA’s intelligence source was former Iraqi Foreign > Minister Naji Sabri and that former CIA Director George Tenet delivered the > information personally to President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick > Cheney and other top White House officials in September 2002. They rebuffed > the CIA three days later. >     "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming and they were looking > for intelligence to fit into the policy," the former CIA agent told CBS. >     US allegations that Saddam had WMD and posed a threat to international > security was a main justification for the March 2003 invasion. >     A 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, to which the CIA was a major > contributor, concluded that prewar Iraq had an active nuclear program and a > huge stockpile of unconventional weapons. >     No such weapons have been found, however, and US assertions that they > existed are now regarded as a hugely damaging intelligence failure. >     But Drumheller, co-author of a forthcoming book entitled "On the Brink: > How the White House Has Compromised American Intelligence," rejects the > notion of an intelligence failure. >     "It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an > intelligence failure," he told CBS. "This was a policy failure." >   ——-

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On the other hand, give just about anyone 12 years, and they could single handedly dismantle the Eiffel tower and hide it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Bush’s desire for war with Iraq predated 9/11.  It was only a matter of > time, and 9/11 gave him a window of opportunity.  In order to fool much > of the American public, and whip them into a war-frenzy that allowed him > to achieve his goal, he simply used cherry-picked "intelligence." > Including "intelligence" that some advisors told him was flawed.  No > matter, he got what he wanted. > I’ve been saying this since before the invasion.  I expect more and more > evidence will surface as time progresses. >  CIA Warned Bush of No Weapons in Iraq >     Reuters >     Saturday 22 April 2006 >     Washington – The CIA had evidence Iraq possessed no weapons of mass > destruction six months before the 2003 US-led invasion but was ignored by a > White House intent on ousting Saddam Hussein, a former senior CIA official > said according to CBS. >     Tyler Drumheller, who headed CIA covert operations in Europe during the > run-up to the Iraq war, said intelligence opposing administration claims of > a WMD threat came from a top Iraqi official who provided the US spy agency > with other credible information. >     The source "told us that there were no active weapons of mass > destruction programs," Drumheller said in a CBS interview to be aired on > Sunday on the network’s news magazine, "60 Minutes." >     "The (White House) group that was dealing with preparation for the Iraq > war came back and said they were no longer interested," he was quoted as > saying in interview excerpts released by CBS on Friday. >     "We said: ‘Well, what about the intel?’ And they said: ‘Well, this > isn’t about intel anymore. This is about regime change’," added Drumheller, > whose CIA operation was assigned the task of debriefing the Iraqi official. >     He was the latest former US official to accuse the White House of > setting an early course toward war in Iraq and ignoring intelligence that > conflicted with its aim. >     CBS said the CIA’s intelligence source was former Iraqi Foreign > Minister Naji Sabri and that former CIA Director George Tenet delivered the > information personally to President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick > Cheney and other top White House officials in September 2002. They rebuffed > the CIA three days later. >     "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming and they were looking > for intelligence to fit into the policy," the former CIA agent told CBS. >     US allegations that Saddam had WMD and posed a threat to international > security was a main justification for the March 2003 invasion. >     A 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, to which the CIA was a major > contributor, concluded that prewar Iraq had an active nuclear program and a > huge stockpile of unconventional weapons. >     No such weapons have been found, however, and US assertions that they > existed are now regarded as a hugely damaging intelligence failure. >     But Drumheller, co-author of a forthcoming book entitled "On the Brink: > How the White House Has Compromised American Intelligence," rejects the > notion of an intelligence failure. >     "It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an > intelligence failure," he told CBS. "This was a policy failure." >   ——-

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  Have an acquaintance who was actualy one of the inspectors, ( of course he’s not gonna say too much on the subject ) but  could not help but ask anyway about a year ago. Basically said everyone knew ( past admin as well ) the stuff was there( actual amounts may never be known ), things that were found were and will NOT for some time if ever be of knowledge to youmeus…..for the most part as you would expect he said Iyouus should be prepared to ponder this forever lol. So our individual answers are still dependant on which side Iyouanyone is "dyed in the wool" towards. After all it is human nature to seehear what we wish to seehear. Most do not have the ability to separate issues, it’s either all for all against a particular prezadminwhat have you.   I learned more from a personal friend who will be coming back in June. We are both white water kayakers, so in an early email, trying to keep on the lighthearted side, I asked him " Hey, they let you do any boating over there?" His reply was they are instructed right away upon arriving in Iraq to stay away from ANY moving water what so ever. Supposedly most of the weapons grade chemicals not already in place in a delivery system, were traveled around and dispersed into any river or stream in an attempt to "dilute" evidence, guess sadam and the boys never watched CSI? Those waters will be "HOT" for a long time to come. Can you imagine an environmentalist movement there? As I said, I doubt any of us will ever know the full story, but that is as history dictates……choose your own versions and wail away.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On the other hand, give just about anyone 12 years, and they could single >handedly dismantle the Eiffel tower and hide it. > But you’d think that the CIA could find the Eiffel tower after three years. >> Bush’s desire for war with Iraq predated 9/11.  It was only a matter of >> time, and 9/11 gave him a window of opportunity.  In order to fool much >> of the American public, and whip them into a war-frenzy that allowed him >> to achieve his goal, he simply used cherry-picked "intelligence." >> Including "intelligence" that some advisors told him was flawed.  No >> matter, he got what he wanted. >> I’ve been saying this since before the invasion.  I expect more and more >> evidence will surface as time progresses. >> >  CIA Warned Bush of No Weapons in Iraq >> >     Reuters >> >     Saturday 22 April 2006 >> >     Washington – The CIA had evidence Iraq possessed no weapons of mass >> > destruction six months before the 2003 US-led invasion but was ignored >by a >> > White House intent on ousting Saddam Hussein, a former senior CIA >official >> > said according to CBS. >> >     Tyler Drumheller, who headed CIA covert operations in Europe during >the >> > run-up to the Iraq war, said intelligence opposing administration claims >of >> > a WMD threat came from a top Iraqi official who provided the US spy >agency >> > with other credible information. >> >     The source "told us that there were no active weapons of mass >> > destruction programs," Drumheller said in a CBS interview to be aired on >> > Sunday on the network’s news magazine, "60 Minutes." >> >     "The (White House) group that was dealing with preparation for the >Iraq >> > war came back and said they were no longer interested," he was quoted as >> > saying in interview excerpts released by CBS on Friday. >> >     "We said: ‘Well, what about the intel?’ And they said: ‘Well, this >> > isn’t about intel anymore. This is about regime change’," added >Drumheller, >> > whose CIA operation was assigned the task of debriefing the Iraqi >official. >> >     He was the latest former US official to accuse the White House of >> > setting an early course toward war in Iraq and ignoring intelligence >that >> > conflicted with its aim. >> >     CBS said the CIA’s intelligence source was former Iraqi Foreign >> > Minister Naji Sabri and that former CIA Director George Tenet delivered >the >> > information personally to President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick >> > Cheney and other top White House officials in September 2002. They >rebuffed >> > the CIA three days later. >> >     "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming and they were >looking >> > for intelligence to fit into the policy," the former CIA agent told CBS. >> >     US allegations that Saddam had WMD and posed a threat to >international >> > security was a main justification for the March 2003 invasion. >> >     A 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, to which the CIA was a major >> > contributor, concluded that prewar Iraq had an active nuclear program >and a >> > huge stockpile of unconventional weapons. >> >     No such weapons have been found, however, and US assertions that >they >> > existed are now regarded as a hugely damaging intelligence failure. >> >     But Drumheller, co-author of a forthcoming book entitled "On the >Brink: >> > How the White House Has Compromised American Intelligence," rejects the >> > notion of an intelligence failure. >> >     "It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an >> > intelligence failure," he told CBS. "This was a policy failure." >> >   ——-

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Yep – more direct evidence that Bush lied us into war. Mr Soul

Response:

>Bush’s desire for war with Iraq predated 9/11.  It was only a matter of >time, and 9/11 gave him a window of opportunity.  In order to fool much >of the American public, and whip them into a war-frenzy that allowed him >to achieve his goal, he simply used cherry-picked "intelligence." >Including "intelligence" that some advisors told him was flawed.  No >matter, he got what he wanted. >I’ve been saying this since before the invasion.  I expect more and more >evidence will surface as time progresses.

Liberal’s desires to impeach Bush predated the Iraq war. It was only a matter of time, and Iraq gave them a window of opportunity. In order to fool much of the American public, and whip them into a anti-Bush frenzy that will allow them to achieve their goal, they simply used cherry-picked "news reports". Including "news reports" that some Right-wingers told them were from Liberal sources. No matter, they are getting what they wanted at the price of ruining our country. I’ve been saying this since before the last election. I expect more and more evidence will surface as time progresses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  CIA Warned Bush of No Weapons in Iraq >     Reuters >     Saturday 22 April 2006 >     Washington – The CIA had evidence Iraq possessed no weapons of mass

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> Yep – more direct evidence that Bush lied us into war.

More INFERENCING by you. As you well know after the many posts, the CONSENSUS at the CIA was that Saddam had WMD’s, BECAUSE HE DID have WMD’s. The Inspectors had found them after the Cease-Fire Agreement was signed and as one of the terms, Saddam had to destroy the WMD’s and provide PROOF of that destruction. That was NEVER done. As you know, every major Intel Agency in the World knew of WMD’s in Iraq. As you know, Tenet told Bush that finding the WMD’s was a "Slam Dunk". I hate to bother you with these facts, but maybe if they are posted enough times, they will begin to sink in.

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>Defend your lying dummy if you must… watch it for yourself if you missed >the show last night: >http://movies.crooksandliars.com/60-Minutes-Tyler.mov

What, a "cherry picked" video by you? No thanks. I haven’t listened to anything CBS has to say since they were caught trying to sabotage Dubya’s campaign a couple years ago. They’re the joke of the industry and you’re a joke for watching.

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>Yep – more direct evidence that Bush lied us into war. >Mr Soul

With no vote from Kerry and his lying ilk there would have been no war. Baby want bottle?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Have an acquaintance who was actualy one of the inspectors, ( of course > he’s not gonna say too much on the subject ) but  could not help but ask > anyway about a year ago. Basically said everyone knew ( past admin as well ) > the stuff was there( actual amounts may never be known ), things that were > found were and will NOT for some time if ever be of knowledge to > youmeus…..for the most part as you would expect he said Iyouus should > be prepared to ponder this forever lol. So our individual answers are still > dependant on which side Iyouanyone is "dyed in the wool" towards. After > all it is human nature to seehear what we wish to seehear. Most do not > have the ability to separate issues, it’s either all for all against a > particular prezadminwhat have you. >   I learned more from a personal friend who will be coming back in June. We > are both white water kayakers, so in an early email, trying to keep on the > lighthearted side, I asked him " Hey, they let you do any boating over > there?" His reply was they are instructed right away upon arriving in Iraq > to stay away from ANY moving water what so ever. Supposedly most of the > weapons grade chemicals not already in place in a delivery system, were > traveled around and dispersed into any river or stream in an attempt to > "dilute" evidence, guess sadam and the boys never watched CSI? Those waters > will be "HOT" for a long time to come. Can you imagine an environmentalist > movement there? As I said, I doubt any of us will ever know the full story, > but that is as history dictates……choose your own versions and wail away.

So Grip – does that mean that our President has knwingly exposaed our troops to HOT Water??????? without telling them???? So what you are also saying is that our troops have been irradiated and have been drinking, swimmming in and pissing into hot water. Very interestink. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >On the other hand, give just about anyone 12 years, and they could single > >handedly dismantle the Eiffel tower and hide it. > But you’d think that the CIA could find the Eiffel tower after three > years. > >> Bush’s desire for war with Iraq predated 9/11.  It was only a matter of > >> time, and 9/11 gave him a window of opportunity.  In order to fool much > >> of the American public, and whip them into a war-frenzy that allowed > him > >> to achieve his goal, he simply used cherry-picked "intelligence." > >> Including "intelligence" that some advisors told him was flawed.  No > >> matter, he got what he wanted. > >> I’ve been saying this since before the invasion.  I expect more and > more > >> evidence will surface as time progresses. > >> >  CIA Warned Bush of No Weapons in Iraq > >> >     Reuters > >> >     Saturday 22 April 2006 > >> >     Washington – The CIA had evidence Iraq possessed no weapons of > mass > >> > destruction six months before the 2003 US-led invasion but was > ignored > >by a > >> > White House intent on ousting Saddam Hussein, a former senior CIA > >official > >> > said according to CBS. > >> >     Tyler Drumheller, who headed CIA covert operations in Europe > during > >the > >> > run-up to the Iraq war, said intelligence opposing administration > claims > >of > >> > a WMD threat came from a top Iraqi official who provided the US spy > >agency > >> > with other credible information. > >> >     The source "told us that there were no active weapons of mass > >> > destruction programs," Drumheller said in a CBS interview to be aired > on > >> > Sunday on the network’s news magazine, "60 Minutes." > >> >     "The (White House) group that was dealing with preparation for > the > >Iraq > >> > war came back and said they were no longer interested," he was quoted > as > >> > saying in interview excerpts released by CBS on Friday. > >> >     "We said: ‘Well, what about the intel?’ And they said: ‘Well, > this > >> > isn’t about intel anymore. This is about regime change’," added > >Drumheller, > >> > whose CIA operation was assigned the task of debriefing the Iraqi > >official. > >> >     He was the latest former US official to accuse the White House of > >> > setting an early course toward war in Iraq and ignoring intelligence > >that > >> > conflicted with its aim. > >> >     CBS said the CIA’s intelligence source was former Iraqi Foreign > >> > Minister Naji Sabri and that former CIA Director George Tenet > delivered > >the > >> > information personally to President George W. Bush, Vice President > Dick > >> > Cheney and other top White House officials in September 2002. They > >rebuffed > >> > the CIA three days later. > >> >     "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming and they were > >looking > >> > for intelligence to fit into the policy," the former CIA agent told > CBS. > >> >     US allegations that Saddam had WMD and posed a threat to > >international > >> > security was a main justification for the March 2003 invasion. > >> >     A 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, to which the CIA was a > major > >> > contributor, concluded that prewar Iraq had an active nuclear program > >and a > >> > huge stockpile of unconventional weapons. > >> >     No such weapons have been found, however, and US assertions that > >they > >> > existed are now regarded as a hugely damaging intelligence failure. > >> >     But Drumheller, co-author of a forthcoming book entitled "On the > >Brink: > >> > How the White House Has Compromised American Intelligence," rejects > the > >> > notion of an intelligence failure. > >> >     "It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an > >> > intelligence failure," he told CBS. "This was a policy failure." > >> >   ——-

Response:

Did you listen or read the 60 minutes report – http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/21/60minutes/main1527749.shtml? "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy." The CIA had a Iraqi double-agent inside Saddam’s regime who said that Iraq didn’t have an active WMD program.  Where have you been? Mr Soul

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Now what’s your problem Kenny boy? Mr Soul

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> Liberal’s desires to impeach Bush predated the Iraq war

Nope. You’re an idiot.

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> > Yep – more direct evidence that Bush lied us into war. > More INFERENCING by you.

Nope. More direct evidence.

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that sadam and boys were not trying to mix up a nice summer drink?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Have an acquaintance who was actualy one of the inspectors, ( of course > he’s not gonna say too much on the subject ) but  could not help but ask > anyway about a year ago. Basically said everyone knew ( past admin as well ) > the stuff was there( actual amounts may never be known ), things that were > found were and will NOT for some time if ever be of knowledge to > youmeus…..for the most part as you would expect he said Iyouus should > be prepared to ponder this forever lol. So our individual answers are still > dependant on which side Iyouanyone is "dyed in the wool" towards. After > all it is human nature to seehear what we wish to seehear. Most do not > have the ability to separate issues, it’s either all for all against a > particular prezadminwhat have you. >   I learned more from a personal friend who will be coming back in June. We > are both white water kayakers, so in an early email, trying to keep on the > lighthearted side, I asked him " Hey, they let you do any boating over > there?" His reply was they are instructed right away upon arriving in Iraq > to stay away from ANY moving water what so ever. Supposedly most of the > weapons grade chemicals not already in place in a delivery system, were > traveled around and dispersed into any river or stream in an attempt to > "dilute" evidence, guess sadam and the boys never watched CSI? Those waters > will be "HOT" for a long time to come. Can you imagine an environmentalist > movement there? As I said, I doubt any of us will ever know the full story, > but that is as history dictates……choose your own versions and wail away. > So Grip – does that mean that our President has knwingly exposaed our > troops to HOT Water??????? without telling them???? So what you are > also saying is that our troops have been irradiated and have been > drinking, swimmming in and pissing into hot water. Very interestink. > > >On the other hand, give just about anyone 12 years, and they could single > > >handedly dismantle the Eiffel tower and hide it. > > But you’d think that the CIA could find the Eiffel tower after three > years. > > >> Bush’s desire for war with Iraq predated 9/11.  It was only a matter of > > >> time, and 9/11 gave him a window of opportunity.  In order to fool much > > >> of the American public, and whip them into a war-frenzy that allowed > him > > >> to achieve his goal, he simply used cherry-picked "intelligence." > > >> Including "intelligence" that some advisors told him was flawed. No > > >> matter, he got what he wanted. > > >> I’ve been saying this since before the invasion.  I expect more and > more > > >> evidence will surface as time progresses. > > >> >  CIA Warned Bush of No Weapons in Iraq > > >> >     Reuters > > >> >     Saturday 22 April 2006 > > >> >     Washington – The CIA had evidence Iraq possessed no weapons of > mass > > >> > destruction six months before the 2003 US-led invasion but was > ignored > > >by a > > >> > White House intent on ousting Saddam Hussein, a former senior CIA > > >official > > >> > said according to CBS. > > >> >     Tyler Drumheller, who headed CIA covert operations in Europe > during > > >the > > >> > run-up to the Iraq war, said intelligence opposing administration > claims > > >of > > >> > a WMD threat came from a top Iraqi official who provided the US spy > > >agency > > >> > with other credible information. > > >> >     The source "told us that there were no active weapons of mass > > >> > destruction programs," Drumheller said in a CBS interview to be aired > on > > >> > Sunday on the network’s news magazine, "60 Minutes." > > >> >     "The (White House) group that was dealing with preparation for > the > > >Iraq > > >> > war came back and said they were no longer interested," he was quoted > as > > >> > saying in interview excerpts released by CBS on Friday. > > >> >     "We said: ‘Well, what about the intel?’ And they said: ‘Well, > this > > >> > isn’t about intel anymore. This is about regime change’," added > > >Drumheller, > > >> > whose CIA operation was assigned the task of debriefing the Iraqi > > >official. > > >> >     He was the latest former US official to accuse the White House of > > >> > setting an early course toward war in Iraq and ignoring intelligence > > >that > > >> > conflicted with its aim. > > >> >     CBS said the CIA’s intelligence source was former Iraqi Foreign > > >> > Minister Naji Sabri and that former CIA Director George Tenet > delivered > > >the > > >> > information personally to President George W. Bush, Vice President > Dick > > >> > Cheney and other top White House officials in September 2002. They > > >rebuffed > > >> > the CIA three days later. > > >> >     "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming and they were > > >looking > > >> > for intelligence to fit into the policy," the former CIA agent told > CBS. > > >> >     US allegations that Saddam had WMD and posed a threat to > > >international > > >> > security was a main justification for the March 2003 invasion. > > >> >     A 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, to which the CIA was a > major > > >> > contributor, concluded that prewar Iraq had an active nuclear program > > >and a > > >> > huge stockpile of unconventional weapons. > > >> >     No such weapons have been found, however, and US assertions that > > >they > > >> > existed are now regarded as a hugely damaging intelligence failure. > > >> >     But Drumheller, co-author of a forthcoming book entitled "On the > > >Brink: > > >> > How the White House Has Compromised American Intelligence," rejects > the > > >> > notion of an intelligence failure. > > >> >     "It just sticks in my craw every time I hear them say it’s an > > >> > intelligence failure," he told CBS. "This was a policy failure." > > >> >   ——-

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but if this is true then our president sent our troops over there to wade in nukular water. Kind of not nice of him to do that. Especially since he’s cutting veteran’s benefits so when they all get cancer…. In an announcement today can be read here http://www.vawatchdog.org/…   the veterans disability commission has asked Congress for apparently illegal directions. They want to be able to decide if Social Security Disability and Veterans Compensation is "double-dipping" into the federal cash register. What they fail to comprehend is that Social Security disability is paid to people who are totally disabled and paid for by insurance premiums paid for thru payroll taxes, it is not a gift or welfare, it is a paid for insurance policy, like life insurance.  VA compensation is paid in percentages based on the injury or medical problem. : Veterans do not get paid a lot of compensation for service related problems, for some injuries they recieve 10% payments which usually equal 106.00 dollars a month, for 50% injuries they get about 806.00 dollars a month, and if they are totally disabled and have a wife and child they get the magnificent sum of 2626.00 a month, now that is in return for compensation for the injury/wounds incurred in service to this nation. If the service member had never been injured how much money he might have made, who knows, 5.25 an hour in a call center, or a lawyer making 300,000 a year?  That question can never be answered but does anyone believe a wounded service member getting $31,000 a year is being over compensated? The Veterans Disability Commission is called a bi-partisan committee, yet it is 9-5 republican heavy, is that really a bi-partisan committee, the democrats are going to lose every vote taken. The commissions report is not due out until after the 2006 election in February 2007. Is it so ugly that  they do not want to take credit? We can not afford to let Republicans win any seats in November, if you are active duty military or a veteran or related to a veteran, this is a very good reason to vote to oust all republican office holders. "A Promise Made Is A Promise Kept" my azz…….

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> >but if this is true then our president sent our troops over there to >wade in nukular water. > Worrying about the water seems kind of redundant since there is all kind of > dust over there from the uranium-enriched shells… probably more danger > from breathing that than there is in the water.

must all glow in the dark by now http://www.isis-online.org/publications/iraq/index.html

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>>As you well know after the many posts, the CONSENSUS at the CIA was that >Saddam had WMD’s, BECAUSE HE DID have WMD’s. > http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/04/23.html#a8020 > That was not the consensus at the CIA.

PROVE that statement!

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> PROVE that statement!

It’s been all through the news – dumb, dumb. Mr Soul

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More on this story today – http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/22/washington/22intel.html?_r=1&oref=s…. Mike

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>>> That was not the consensus at the CIA. >PROVE that statement! > Did you watch the clip? > Got eyes & ears?

You said that there was NOT a CONSENSUS, and I called you on it! Then it should be easy for YOU to PROVE that there was NO CONSENSUS at the CIA! Step up, or again prove that once again, you are factless and intellectually bankrupt!

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> What the fuck — are you blind and deaf?  You call this a "consensus" that > Iraq had WMD?

You made the ignorant claim that there was NOT a consensus at the CIA and you have yet to find a quote that verifies your claim while there HAVE been clips that DO offer quotes of a CONSENSUS at the CIA. One man’s claim does NOT make a consensus, and he does NOT address the issue of consensus. You made the claim, now verify it!

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> It’s fascinating to watch someone who thinks he’s so smart act so > purposely > stupid. What the fuck is the matter with your mind?

I know the meaning of the word consensus, something of which you are obviously ignorant. I just posted quotes > from the head of CIA European office (which you conveniently snipped out > of > your reply) that they had presented the Bush adminstration with very > strong > evidence that Saddam had no WMD. Therefore there was no consensus that he > had them.

Consensus does NOT mean unanimous! There have been many stories posted that have stated that a CONSENSUS at the CIA did believe in Saddam having WMD’s. Just like there have been many stories posted in which Tenet told Bush that finding WMD’s was a "Slam Dunk". You continue to FAIL to verify your claims, but at least you are consistent!

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>>Consensus does NOT mean unanimous! >You continue to FAIL to verify your claims, but at least you are >consistent! > con

How the Libs forget so quickly…. London Sunday Times BYLINE: James Adams It was the moment President Bill Clinton wanted to restore his tattered reputation with the military before his departure for the D-Day celebrations in Europe this week, James Adams reports. He had just presented posthumous Congressional Medals of Honour, America’s highest military decoration, to the widows of two soldiers for valour in Somalia. After inviting the families for a moment of quiet reflection in the Oval Office, the president approached Herbert Shughart, the father of one of the two soldiers, and offered his hand. To his astonishment the handshake was declined. ‘You are not fit to be president of the United States,’ said Shughart Senior. ‘The blame for my son’s death rests with the White House and with you. You are not fit to command.’ The president reeled and the unprecedented onslaught continued for some minutes. According to witnesses it was a ‘highly charged emotional moment’ which resulted in Clinton trying to explain to Shughart,Sr. why the events of that day last October were not his fault. Shughart and his colleague, both sergeants, were killed trying to rescue fellow rangers from a vicious fire-fight in which 18 died and 75 were wounded. A later Pentagon investigation revealed that the troops had been refused the right equipment and there was no political or military plan to justify the Americ an presence in Somalia. Although the president has tried to escape the blame, he is largely credited with the failure of the whole American effort to bring peace to Somalia. According to witnesses to the Oval Office scene, the Shughart family remained unconvinced by the president’s arguments. ‘The medal doesn’t help anything, other than that we are grateful that Randy will be remembered in such an honourable way,’ said Lois Shughart, the soldier’s mother. Since the row, the White House has been desperate to contain the damage in advance of the D-Day celebrations. ‘Everyone wants to make sure that the president arrives in Europe as the commander in chief and not as a man seen as unfit to lead,’ said one White House source. Weeks of feverish preparation have gone into the European trip to commemorate the Normandy landings and it has been designed to attract reflected glory for the president, who avoided the draft during the Vietnam war. Yesterday in his Memorial Day address, the day when America honours its war dead, Clinton said there were limits to committing US troops abroad in the new post-Cold War era. The greatest challenge, he said, came from the ‘the smouldering embers of ethnic and religious hatreds’ in places like Bosnia and Rwanda. ‘We cannot dispatch our troops to solve every problem where our values are offended by human misery, and we should not,’ Clinton said. ‘We are prepared to defend ourselves and our fundamental interests when they are threatened.’

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PLONK!

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When everything is going wrong for your fucking heroes, you blame Clinton. So much for personal responsibility, huh, Ralph? What a pussy.

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…

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> When everything is going wrong for your fucking heroes, you blame Clinton. > So much for personal responsibility, huh, Ralph? What a pussy.

boy howdy.

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Ms. Rice says "We go with the information we have now." because we didn’t know then what we know sol that excuses everything tomorrow.

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"…" Of course, his middle name is "… …. .. – …. . .- -.."

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>When everything is going wrong for your fucking heroes, you blame Clinton. >So much for personal responsibility, huh, Ralph? What a pussy.

LOL! You read the 1 in 100 posts about Clinton and then say it’s all about Clinton? What a pussy. PLONK!

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>boy howdy.

Are you riding Mulay right now?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->When everything is going wrong for your fucking heroes, you blame Clinton. >So much for personal responsibility, huh, Ralph? What a pussy. > LOL! You read the 1 in 100 posts about Clinton and then say it’s all > about Clinton? > What a pussy. > PLONK!

Oh, boohoo. I’ve been plonked. Will my life EVER be the same??? Sob! Sob! I guess I will have to fall on my soldering iron….!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How the Libs forget so quickly…. > London Sunday Times > BYLINE: James Adams > It was the moment President Bill Clinton wanted to restore his > tattered reputation with the military before his departure for the > D-Day celebrations in Europe this week, James Adams reports. > He had just presented posthumous Congressional Medals of Honour, > America’s highest military decoration, to the widows of two soldiers > for valour in Somalia. After inviting the families for a moment of > quiet reflection in the Oval Office, the president approached Herbert > Shughart, the father of one of the two soldiers, and offered his hand. > To his astonishment the handshake was declined. ‘You are not fit to be > president of the United States,’ said Shughart Senior. ‘The blame for > my son’s death rests with the White House and with you. You are not > fit to command.’

I did not like the Clintons one bit during their administration.  However, my political views didn’t lead to the level of hatred that is common to the Bush’s opponents of today.  My opinion is that the Clintons’ inactions regarding direct attacks and threats from Muslim terrorists are the chief reasons we are fighting extremists right now. Having said that, I remember the incident in the above post and I remember being appalled by the statement made by the distraught father.  IMO, it was uncalled for.  I thought it was not only disrespectful to the office of the President but also to the memory of the soldier who was killed.  The father was not in control of his grief should have stayed home that day. Steve

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> I did not like the Clintons one bit during their administration.

Do you mean the administration that provided a vibrant economy, more jobs and a balanced budget?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > How the Libs forget so quickly…. > London Sunday Times > BYLINE: James Adams > It was the moment President Bill Clinton wanted to restore his > tattered reputation with the military before his departure for the > D-Day celebrations in Europe this week, James Adams reports. > He had just presented posthumous Congressional Medals of Honour, > America’s highest military decoration, to the widows of two soldiers > for valour in Somalia. After inviting the families for a moment of > quiet reflection in the Oval Office, the president approached Herbert > Shughart, the father of one of the two soldiers, and offered his hand. > To his astonishment the handshake was declined. ‘You are not fit to be > president of the United States,’ said Shughart Senior. ‘The blame for > my son’s death rests with the White House and with you. You are not > fit to command.’ > The president reeled and the unprecedented onslaught continued for > some minutes. According to witnesses it was a ‘highly charged > emotional moment’ which resulted in Clinton trying to explain to > Shughart,Sr. why the events of that day last October were not his > fault. > Shughart and his colleague, both sergeants, were killed trying to > rescue fellow rangers from a vicious fire-fight in which 18 died and > 75 > were wounded. A later Pentagon investigation revealed that the troops > had been refused the right equipment and there was no political or > military plan to justify the American presence in Somalia. < snip>

Hey–it sounds JUST LIKE what’s going on now in Iraq! Except that Bush is now responsible for the deaths of over 2,200 US soldiers.  Only 43 died in Somalia.  That makes Bush about 51 times worse than Clinton–and counting. Plus, Clinton didn’t get us into a war by lying to us.  Bush did. Aren’t you the moron, Ralphie.      –E

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according to rumor Clinton didn’t lose one soldier in Kosovo and solved the problem. whereas Bush – dead dead dead incompetant incompetant incompetant.

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>Hey–it sounds JUST LIKE what’s going on now in Iraq! >Except that Bush is now responsible for the deaths of over 2,200 US >soldiers.  Only 43 died in Somalia.  That makes Bush about 51 times >worse than Clinton–and counting.

HEY… and that means Kennedy and Johnson were about 1400 times worse than Clinton and counting and Reagan was 43 times better. Awesome… >Plus, Clinton didn’t get us into a war by lying to us.  Bush did.

Shit-for-brains here doesn’t realize it was Clinton’s fault that 9/11 and the Iraq war happened in the first place. He let the situation in Iraq get way out of hand and did nothing, ultimately giving Osama confidence that nothing would happen if he took out the WTC, because we were "Paper Tigers". Read it and weep, Lib: http://www.statenews.com/editionsfall97/111497/p1_iraq.html Friday, November 14, 1997 Iraq kicks out U.S. inspectors Rubner said that considerable evidence has been found over the last six years that Saddam violated every U.N. resolution passed in the wake of the Persian Gulf War. McCurry said it was important to hold together the international coalition against Iraq.

"PARIS (Reuters) – Gangs of youths torched 1,300 vehicles overnight in the 10th consecutive night of violence in Paris’s poor suburbs and major French towns, despite the deployment of thousands of extra police. Cars were burned out in the historic center of Paris for the first time on Saturday night. In the normally quiet Normandy town of Evreux, a shopping mall, 50 vehicles, a post office and two schools went up in flames. Authorities have so far found no way beyond appeals and more police to address a problem with complex social, economic and racial causes. Evreux mayor Jean-Louis Debre, a confidant of President Jacques Chirac and speaker of the lower house of parliament, told France Info radio: "To those responsible for the violence, I want to say: Be serious … If you want to live in a fairer, more fraternal society, this is not how to go about it." The deaths 10 days ago of two youths apparently fleeing police ignited pent up frustrations among young men, many of them Muslims of North and black African origin, at racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their treatment by the police. "Many youths have never seen their parents work and couldn’t hold down a job if they got one," said Claude Chevallier, manager of a burned-out carpet depot in the rundown Paris suburb of Aulnay-sous-Bois. But authorities now say the rolling nightly riots are being organized via the Internet and mobile phones, and have pointed the finger at drug traffickers and Islamist militants. Overnight, 1,295 vehicles were torched across France, the highest total so far, police said. An extra 2,300 officers have been drafted in. Seven police helicopters buzzed over the Paris region through the night, filming disturbances and directing mobile squads to incidents. Overnight, police made 349 arrests. The number of incidents in the Paris region was similar to the night before, but in the provinces it was up sharply. TARNISHED IMAGE The violence has tarnished France’s image abroad, forcing Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin to cancel a trip to Canada, while Russia and the United States have warned their citizens to avoid Paris’s troubled suburbs. Villepin has combined a call for an end to the riots with dialogue with community leaders, youngsters and local officials, and has promised an action plan for 750 tough neighborhoods. "I’ll make proposals as early as this week," the weekly Journal du Dimanche quoted him as saying. But it remained unclear what could stop the violence, though some opposition parties have suggested a symbolic measure — the resignation of Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy. Accused of stoking passions by calling troublemakers "scum," Sarkozy has ignored calls to quit. A survey published on Sunday indicated his public image was holding up, even if many disapproved of his strong language. Villepin also has ambitions to be the right wing’s presidential candidate in 2007 and has tried to position himself as a much more consensual figure than Sarkozy; the effect on the crisis on his ratings is still unclear. With no end in sight to the nights of wailing sirens, acrid smoke, stone-throwing and destruction, residents from all ethnic backgrounds are tiring of the unrest. "My kids can’t sleep at night," said a mother named Samia in Aulnay-sous-Bois. "They hear explosions, they see fires and they think they’re in a war. When the slightest thing happens, they get anxious and say ‘Mama, what’s going on?"’" http://reuters.myway.com/article/20051106/2005-11-06T121732Z_01_MAR22…

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>racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their treatment by the >police.

This is being spun as a Muslim thing, but it’s not — it’s economic. They aren’t "Muslim Insurgents" — these riots are more along the lines of Detriot and Watts in the 1960s.  Those lasted a few days too.

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> >racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their treatment by the >police. > This is being spun as a Muslim thing, but it’s not — it’s economic. > They aren’t "Muslim Insurgents" — these riots are more along the lines > of Detriot and Watts in the 1960s.  Those lasted a few days too.

Yeah; that’s how the "leaders" over there are trying to deal with it, anyway — "understand" them, ‘respect’ them, and oh by the way, make up more social programs to give them shit. Because they’re nice people, they’re just poor. Don’t poor people everywhere burn cars by the hundreds every night for weeks? Suuuuure… it happens all the time in all those countries in Africa where they don’t have a fucking grain of rice because their fucking racist dictators want ALL the money. That’s what they do *all the time* over there — they burn fucking cars. That’s why you can see Africa from space at night. Yup. Let’s see how far this thing has to go before the liberals running everything over there realize that all they have to do is give the thugs ALL the money, and let THEM run everything. THEN they’ll have peace, and all OUR liberals can move there and call it utopia. Shee-it, Lars

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> it’s economic. > They aren’t "Muslim Insurgents" — these riots are more along the lines > of Detriot and Watts in the 1960s

And Brixton/Manchester/Birmingham in the 80’s.

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> that’s how the "leaders" over there are trying to deal with it, > anyway — "understand" them, ‘respect’ them

Understanding and respect. Wouldn’t that be nice. Yet you use the words as derogatory phrase.

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> >racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their

treatment by the >police. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is being spun as a Muslim thing, but it’s not — it’s economic. > They aren’t "Muslim Insurgents" — these riots are more along the lines > of Detriot and Watts in the 1960s.  Those lasted a few days too. > Yeah; that’s how the "leaders" over there are trying to deal with it, > anyway — "understand" them, ‘respect’ them, and oh by the way, make up > more social programs to give them shit. Because they’re nice people, > they’re just poor. Don’t poor people everywhere burn cars by the > hundreds every night for weeks? Suuuuure… it happens all the time in > all those countries in Africa where they don’t have a fucking grain of > rice because their fucking racist dictators want ALL the money. That’s > what they do *all the time* over there — they burn fucking cars. > That’s why you can see Africa from space at night. > Yup. Let’s see how far this thing has to go before the liberals running > everything over there realize that all they have to do is give the > thugs ALL the money, and let THEM run everything. THEN they’ll have > peace, and all OUR liberals can move there and call it utopia. > Shee-it, > Lars

Where immigrants have no incentive for cultural conformity and real assimiliation there will eventually be a social divide that expresses itself the way it has in France.  Splinter groups eventually become large disenfranchised minority groups with a grievance against the parent society. We don’t raise our kids to be outsiders (well, most of us, anyway).  Why should society encourage ethnic minorities to stay outside the cultural mainstream and cripple themselves socially and economically? Jeff

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> > that’s how the "leaders" over there are trying to deal with it, > anyway — "understand" them, ‘respect’ them > Understanding and respect. Wouldn’t that be nice. Yet you use the words > as derogatory phrase.

I use it with contempt for it as a strategy to stop riots that have already begun. If you think that was so wrongheaded of *me*, then why don’t you tell me WHY ISN’T IT WORKING? After all, he called for those things *a week ago*, didn’t he? Lars

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Yo Lertz… I f you knew what the fuck you were talking about, it would be nice.

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Lars you are truly an idiot. "It’s not a political revolution or a Muslim revolution," said Rezzoug [caretaker of the municipal gymnasium and soccer field]. "There’s a lot of rage. Through this burning, they’re saying, ‘I exist, I’m here.’ " As I understand, there’s 60% unemployment in the area where the riots are occuring. Mr Soul

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Who here has been to Paris?

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hated it… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Who here has been to Paris?

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> Who here has been to Paris?

I was there 20-odd years ago.  Once was enough. Jeff

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> hated it… > Who here has been to Paris?

Well, it was once a great city. Back in the middle ages, say. Some of the glorious architecture of that bygone era of French culture is still definitely worth a look. Reason I bring it up, is because for those who haven’t been, time seems to be running out. It doesn’t look like the French will muster the gumption to beat back the takeover that’s going on over there. What other country would take that for 10 days of continuous escalation, all the while saying ‘well, don’t worry, it looks like it’s waning…’? They might as well be invading Nazis for the "understanding and respect" the French ‘leaders’ are calling for to be shown to them. I’m sure glad MY president ain’t no damn liberal. Lars PS: before Jacques Chiracques hands over the keys to the thugs, shouldn’t we send troops in to reclaim all the masterpieces in the Louvre for the West, before the Mohammedans get the chance to do what they’ve always done with art?

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>Who here has been to Paris?

If I ever go to Europe, that won’t be one of the cities that interests me. Pete — I’m not animated to do that. –Brak

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hated it… > > Who here has been to Paris? >Well, it was once a great city. Back in the middle ages, say. Some of >the glorious architecture of that bygone era of French culture is still >definitely worth a look. >Reason I bring it up, is because for those who haven’t been, time seems >to be running out. It doesn’t look like the French will muster the >gumption to beat back the takeover that’s going on over there. What >other country would take that for 10 days of continuous escalation, all >the while saying ‘well, don’t worry, it looks like it’s waning…’? >They might as well be invading Nazis for the "understanding and >respect" the French ‘leaders’ are calling for to be shown to them. >I’m sure glad MY president ain’t no damn liberal. >Lars >PS: before Jacques Chiracques hands over the keys to the thugs, >shouldn’t we send troops in to reclaim all the masterpieces in the >Louvre for the West, before the Mohammedans get the chance to do what >they’ve always done with art?

They’ll protect the art by draping white flags over it. Pete — I’m not animated to do that. –Brak

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Back in ‘87 as an exchange student I found 6 weeks to travel around Europe and North Africa, I loved 80% of the whole trip, 15% was OK, and Paris is the 5% I’m trying to forget about.  People were unfriendly, condescending, rude, and ignorant.  Truly don’t feel the need to ever go back there unless they start selling Tweed Fenders and JTM45’s at 20 euros a pop.  Who knows though, maybe things have changed.

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> > hated it… > > Who here has been to Paris? > Well, it was once a great city. Back in the middle ages, say. Some of > the glorious architecture of that bygone era of French culture is still > definitely worth a look.

Still a great city.  I went there in 2000 and 2001 – had a blast. Great architecture, easy to get around, great food and drink, lovely women, cool vibe, and of course, phenomenal museums.  Bummer is that the museums aren’t free, like they are in London. > Reason I bring it up, is because for those who haven’t been, time seems > to be running out. It doesn’t look like the French will muster the > gumption to beat back the takeover that’s going on over there. What > other country would take that for 10 days of continuous escalation, all > the while saying ‘well, don’t worry, it looks like it’s waning…’? > They might as well be invading Nazis for the "understanding and > respect" the French ‘leaders’ are calling for to be shown to them. > I’m sure glad MY president ain’t no damn liberal.

The French president, Chirac, is a member of the UMP – a right-wing conservative party.

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Maybe 20 times. I was there again just two months ago with my son. One of the true great cities in the world.     Clarke

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>Who here has been to Paris?

The one in Tennessee? The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

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>>Who here has been to Paris? > The one in Tennessee?

Everyone knows that Jackson is where the Action is. — Sasquatch http://freefender.com/index.php?referral=374995 http://www.soundclick.com/mulunjun

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > hated it… > > > Who here has been to Paris? > Well, it was once a great city. Back in the middle ages, say. Some of > the glorious architecture of that bygone era of French culture is still > definitely worth a look. > Still a great city.  I went there in 2000 and 2001 – had a blast. > Great architecture, easy to get around, great food and drink, lovely > women, cool vibe, and of course, phenomenal museums.  Bummer is that > the museums aren’t free, like they are in London. > Reason I bring it up, is because for those who haven’t been, time seems > to be running out. It doesn’t look like the French will muster the > gumption to beat back the takeover that’s going on over there. What > other country would take that for 10 days of continuous escalation, all > the while saying ‘well, don’t worry, it looks like it’s waning…’? > They might as well be invading Nazis for the "understanding and > respect" the French ‘leaders’ are calling for to be shown to them. > I’m sure glad MY president ain’t no damn liberal. > The French president, Chirac, is a member of the UMP – a right-wing > conservative party.

Yes. I’m glad you put a finer point on my, well, point. Had I said it, it would have seemed gloating, but since YOU bring it up: It is certainly a country ripe for conquest by barbarians where the leader of the RIGHT wing calls for respect for the invading barbarians. What would their leader from the LEFT be doing, *helping* the thugs rape and pillage and torch private property? Lars

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>What other country would take that

What other country would suffer the attacks of 9/11 and not try to catch the mastermind?

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> What other country would suffer the attacks of 9/11 and not try to > catch the mastermind?

Why do you persist in making such ignorant remarks? You well know that a number of countries have teams looking for him. I suppose that you think that it would be easy with the resources available? You need to study a bit of history and you would know that the Russians had hundreds of thousands of troops looking for Bin Laden for years and never found him, and they were from the country next door, not from across the other side of the planet. Study more before you post and you won’t sound so silly! See ya, John

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courageously avow: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > hated it… > > > > Who here has been to Paris? > > Well, it was once a great city. Back in the middle ages, say. Some of > > the glorious architecture of that bygone era of French culture is still > > definitely worth a look. > Still a great city.  I went there in 2000 and 2001 – had a blast. > Great architecture, easy to get around, great food and drink, lovely > women, cool vibe, and of course, phenomenal museums.  Bummer is that > the museums aren’t free, like they are in London. > > Reason I bring it up, is because for those who haven’t been, time seems > > to be running out. It doesn’t look like the French will muster the > > gumption to beat back the takeover that’s going on over there. What > > other country would take that for 10 days of continuous escalation, all > > the while saying ‘well, don’t worry, it looks like it’s waning…’? > > They might as well be invading Nazis for the "understanding and > > respect" the French ‘leaders’ are calling for to be shown to them. > > I’m sure glad MY president ain’t no damn liberal. > The French president, Chirac, is a member of the UMP – a right-wing > conservative party. >Yes. I’m glad you put a finer point on my, well, point. Had I said it, >it would have seemed gloating, but since YOU bring it up: It is >certainly a country ripe for conquest by barbarians where the leader of >the RIGHT wing calls for respect for the invading barbarians. What >would their leader from the LEFT be doing, *helping* the thugs rape and >pillage and torch private property? >Lars

Serving up some red herring again are we.  You’re starting to sound like our resident lady in waiting, John Wheaton.  Worry about your own mess in Iraqnam.  Now, back in the bowl before you get on someone’s shoes. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What other country would suffer the attacks of 9/11 and not try to > catch the mastermind? >Why do you persist in making such ignorant remarks? You well know that a >number of countries have teams looking for him. >I suppose that you think that it would be easy with the resources available? >You need to study a bit of history and you would know that the Russians had >hundreds of thousands of troops looking for Bin Laden for years and never >found him, and they were from the country next door, not from across the >other side of the planet. >Study more before you post and you won’t sound so silly! >See ya, >John

To catch ignorant little troglodytes such as yourself maybe.  Don’t sweat your tutu over it.  You can go back to reading your "Little Women" now. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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>>Who here has been to Paris? >The one in Tennessee? >The Repair Guy >http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

No, the one in Texas that starred in the movie. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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Wall Lars, me a Bubba went over thare, but they tried to make us eat DUCK with Orange on it, ’stead of applesase laike they doit en Kentucky and we didn’ lak it much. That there Sane River was right purty but thet baig radio station in the middle a town luks kinda outa’ place, if ya’ know whut ah mean. YUK, YUK. Thet an’ everybody knows ya’ cain’t trust them furin’ queer Frenchies anywho. The wimen were raight purdy tho, I gotta admit, Yuk, Yuk. Ahm still thinkin’ about them ever night, if ya’ know whut I mean. Yuck Yuk. Kinda glad to be back in Good Old USA though. I guess I got a little homesick fer viddles an’ grits, yuk, yuk. All thet culture makes me kinda seasick anyway, if ya know what I mean. Yuk, yuk.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Wall Lars, me a Bubba went over thare, but they tried to make us eat > DUCK with Orange on it, ’stead of applesase laike they doit en Kentucky > and we didn’ lak it much. That there Sane River was right purty but > thet baig radio station in the middle a town luks kinda outa’ place, if > ya’ know whut ah mean. YUK, YUK. > Thet an’ everybody knows ya’ cain’t trust them furin’ queer Frenchies > anywho. > The wimen were raight purdy tho, I gotta admit, Yuk, Yuk. Ahm still > thinkin’ about them ever night, if ya’ know whut I mean. Yuck Yuk. > Kinda glad to be back in Good Old USA though. I guess I got a little > homesick fer viddles an’ grits, yuk, yuk. All thet culture makes me > kinda seasick anyway, if ya know what I mean. Yuk, yuk.

Well that’s pretty dumb. Not quite as dumb as trying to get the rest of the country to respect, and understand, and approve new aid grants for, the thugs who are burning your cities down, but pretty dumb, nonetheless. Just think: a few more generations of inbreeding, and *your* kids may be as dumb as those ‘cultured’ French. But hey, they sure know how to make a souffle, don’t they? For another generation, anyway; Too bad *their* kids will have to live on falafel. Lars

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average one has never been fired and dropped only once.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Who here has been to Paris?

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> Who here has been to Paris?

Many times. Wonderful place. Great people.

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> > What other country would suffer the attacks of 9/11 and not try to > catch the mastermind? > You well know that a > number of countries have teams looking for him.

Damn shame the USA didn’ devote its energies to finding OBL instead of wasting time invading Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with the attack on the WTC.

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> Just think: a few more generations of inbreeding

And you’ll think like Lars!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > hated it… > > > > Who here has been to Paris? > > Well, it was once a great city. Back in the middle ages, say. Some of > > the glorious architecture of that bygone era of French culture is still > > definitely worth a look. > Still a great city.  I went there in 2000 and 2001 – had a blast. > Great architecture, easy to get around, great food and drink, lovely > women, cool vibe, and of course, phenomenal museums.  Bummer is that > the museums aren’t free, like they are in London. > > Reason I bring it up, is because for those who haven’t been, time seems > > to be running out. It doesn’t look like the French will muster the > > gumption to beat back the takeover that’s going on over there. What > > other country would take that for 10 days of continuous escalation, all > > the while saying ‘well, don’t worry, it looks like it’s waning…’? > > They might as well be invading Nazis for the "understanding and > > respect" the French ‘leaders’ are calling for to be shown to them. > > I’m sure glad MY president ain’t no damn liberal. > The French president, Chirac, is a member of the UMP – a right-wing > conservative party. > Yes. I’m glad you put a finer point on my, well, point. Had I said it, > it would have seemed gloating, but since YOU bring it up: It is > certainly a country ripe for conquest by barbarians where the leader of > the RIGHT wing calls for respect for the invading barbarians. What > would their leader from the LEFT be doing, *helping* the thugs rape and > pillage and torch private property? > L

Your point was pretty blunt – it wouldn’t take too much work to sharpen it.  But what I actually did was poke a hole in it.  Your "point", that is.

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> Who here has been to Paris?

I live in Paris, and the only thing I can say is "forget US propaganda about what is happening in Paris…" Patrick

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You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re asking for shit. Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t like the menu you should have ordered something else. Rieni

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> You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing > a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re > asking for shit. Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t > like the menu you should have ordered something else. > Rieni

Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there *was* an "America." Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut the fuck up. Lord Valve American

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> Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which > gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, > poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, > and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut > the fuck up.

Jeez… When are you going to grow a set of balls and start speaking up when there’s something on your mind? :0) See ya, John P.S. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me about the "Fender" tubes that were in the Super Champ that I bought.

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>You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >asking for shit.

Hey, French idiot, why didn’t you stop Hitler in 1936 when they broke the treaty of Versailles? You could have saved over 50 million lives and we wouldn’t have had to liberate your ass. Why don’t you go visit some American graves in your country today and give them thanks for giving you the chance to freely hate America, instead of being forced to by Nazis or Communists. Imagine if we wouldn’t have stopped Saddam in 1991 and let him take over the Middle East. Imagine if we didn’t protect the world’s oil supply for your selfish ass. Where would you be, Frenchie? Where would the Western World be without the US? >Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t >like the menu you should have ordered something else. >Rieni

Nobody is crying dipshit, only the French who have no more power in the world. Sit down, shut up and let us protect the free world asswipe, we don’t need you.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >asking for shit. Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t >like the menu you should have ordered something else. >Rieni > Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there *was* an > "America." > Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which > gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, > poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, > and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut > the fuck up. > Lord Valve > American

Besides…   we tried our best to ’stay out of it’… gtski

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >asking for shit. > Hey, French idiot, why didn’t you stop Hitler in 1936 when they broke > the treaty of Versailles? You could have saved over 50 million lives > and we wouldn’t have had to liberate your ass. Why don’t you go visit > some American graves in your country today and give them thanks for > giving you the chance to freely hate America, instead of being forced > to by Nazis or Communists. > Imagine if we wouldn’t have stopped Saddam in 1991 and let him take > over the Middle East. Imagine if we didn’t protect the world’s oil > supply for your selfish ass. Where would you be, Frenchie? Where would > the Western World be without the US? >Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t >like the menu you should have ordered something else. >Rieni > Nobody is crying dipshit, only the French who have no more power in > the world. Sit down, shut up and let us protect the free world > asswipe, we don’t need you.

I hate to correct you when you’re on a roll, but it should read: "Hey, Dutch idiot…" Carry on.

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> Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there *was* an > "America."

As did Christians, Jews, Animists, Pagans and Zoroastrians. What’s your point?

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> Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which > gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, > poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, > and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut > the fuck up. > Lord Valve > American

1. America invaded Vietnam, Iraq. Mass murder. 2. U.S. Serial Killers. 3. You’re so fat, it’s clearly short circuited the brain metabolism required to do all but perpetuate incontinence. 4. See 1-3 then lick the nipples on those wretched man boobs of yours. 5. See 1-4.

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>I hate to correct you when you’re on a roll, but it should read: "Hey, Dutch >idiot…" >Carry on.

I was going by his news service "news.wanadoo.fr". Isn’t that French? Either, way, the wooden shoe fits.

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> >I hate to correct you when you’re on a roll, but it should read: "Hey, Dutch >idiot…" >Carry on. > I was going by his news service "news.wanadoo.fr". Isn’t that French?

> Either, way, the wooden shoe fits.

Agreed.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >> a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >> asking for shit. Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t >> like the menu you should have ordered something else. >> Rieni > Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there > *was* an > "America." > Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which > gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, > poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, > and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut > the fuck up. > Lord Valve > American > Besides…   we tried our best to ’stay out of it’… > gtski

"we" she writes. Another anonymous chickenshit 3 miles back holding a torch and a stick

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> Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there *was* an >"America." >Lord Valve >Ignorant

So did Christians, bright-eyes.

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It’s amazing how many people can’t stick with current events.  All the lamer rightie replys are talking about history while the original poster is talking about the modern era. The fact is since the end of WW II the USA has instigated overt and covert actions against other nations dozens of times.

Response:

courageously avow: >It’s amazing how many people can’t stick with current events.  All the >lamer rightie replys are talking about history while the original >poster is talking about the modern era. >The fact is since the end of WW II the USA has instigated overt and >covert actions against other nations dozens of times.

hmmmmm, thinking ……. the righties have to go back to WWII because it’s the most recent example of American muscle flexing that didn’t end in them eventually having their ass handed to them? hmmmmm, thinking ……. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

>the righties have to go back to WWII because it’s the most recent >example of American muscle flexing that didn’t end in them eventually >having their ass handed to them?

No, I think they have to go back that far to find a war that actually had some kind of rational just cause to it. Everything since WWII has pretty much been imperialist meddling and interference in other nation’s soveriegn affairs, with the added economic benefit to the defense/industrial complex.  After picking on small fry like Panama, Grenada (doesn’t get much smaller than that), staging assasinations, rigging elections, and so forth, It’s a wonder the USA isn’t hated more than we already are.

Response:

>>You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >asking for shit. >Hey, French idiot, why didn’t you stop Hitler in 1936 when they broke >the treaty of Versailles?

You’re mixing up the 40s with today, and Europe with the middle east. Apples and pears. Also, I’m Dutch, and most people in Holland and the Dutch government support Bush. There are Dutch soldiers in Iraq. I’m just one of those who are bright enough to see what kind of guy Bush really is. You don’t need to be smart, just look at him and all you see is a pile of shit. Terrorists will attack Holland too one day and then of course most Dutch will be against the war in Iraq. Just like it went in Spain. But why do we need to be counter-attacked first before most of us realize we’re fighting the wrong war? Look at the bombs in London, some months ago. 30 deads and there still talking about it. Well in Irak at least 30 people die on a daily base. So basically we’re saying that a Western life does count more than an Iraqi life. And I refuse to accept that. Peace brother, Rieni

Response:

>>I hate to correct you when you’re on a roll, but it should read: "Hey, Dutch >idiot…" >Carry on. >I was going by his news service "news.wanadoo.fr". Isn’t that French? >Either, way, the wooden shoe fits.

Your momma loves my wooden cock and I’m not talking pinewood here. Rieni

Response:

>> He’s already > started his run for the nomination in 2008 by hooking up with groups > such as TheAmericanCause and trying to launch a new isolationist magazine. > Heh, heh, heh, . . . .   You don’t know what you’re writing about.

That’s a matter of opinion, and that’s what politics is all about. > Buchanan > and his sister, Bay, CREATED theamericancause!! They also have large > inputs to TheAmericanConservative publication. > And, I don’t need to see your list. I’ve read almost everything he has

In other words, please don’t confuse me with the facts. > If you had a better appreciate of global politics you would NEVER use the > word "Isolationist" in referring to Pat Buchanan.

More opinion, and a prime example of how one can confuse the man and the message. Buchanan won 0.4% of the popular vote in 2000, behind Nader’s 2.7%. Face it, Buchanan and his philosophy are losers, and always will be. > There are an infinite > number of levels between "Isolationism" and the naive dancing to the "Global > Village" bongo-drums tune. Buchanan’s philosophy lies at a moderate and > sensible level between the extremes; exactly the level we will need to > attain to retain our sovereignty and our status as a leader of nations (but > NOT some sort of global empire ruled by someone with a grand "messiah" > complex!).

Buchanan’s philosophy lies at the extreme and totally whacko level; you’re confusing the man and the message again. > Buchanan may be a bit "aged" to make the run in 2008.  But, I cannot but > believe there are many other intelligent, insightful, patriotic, > potentially-great Statesmen out there in our land that could serve as his > descendant.

One would fervently hope that *anyone* other than Buchanan would carry the Reform Party’s message to the voters. > I could well be that the U.S. Citizenry (legal citizens & voters one and > all) are finally waking up to what the major parties have done to our > beloved nation. But (IMHO) TIME is not on our side. Let us hope that

 > something good can happen with the 2008 election. Amen, as long as the standard-bearer is NOT Patrick Buchanan. > And, thanks for your wishes for our good fortune. You will be with us when > you fully appreciate what is at stake.

I fully appreciate NOW what is at stake. You yet again confuse the man and the message.

Response:

> Nothing in there about "isolationism". You are strictly paranoic! Take > your meds and sleep it off.

Yawn. Oh, yawn! Think I’ll take a nap. The Great Betrayal : How American Sovereignty and Social Justice Are Being Sacrificed to the Gods of the Global Economy, by Patrick J. Buchanan  From Amazon.com: The Great Betrayal is an economic manifesto that promotes what Buchanan calls "economic nationalism." Buchanan offers a protectionist political agenda — one that many modern conservatives may not like, but one that Buchanan says puts him in the fine tradition of Washington, Lincoln, and Theodore Roosevelt. A forceful polemic challenging elite economic opinion.  From The Atlantic Monthly: Despite its one-sided arguments and hyperbolic claims, The Great Betrayal ought to stir discussion of alternatives to the free-market internationalist status quo. Contrary to the best hopes of its advocates, the status quo has not extinguished the flames of nationalism but may actually be feeding them.  From Booklist: The once (and future?) maverick presidential candidate puts his best foot forward in a clear and cogent argument for protective tariffs and against doctrinaire free trade. His recipe is to reinstitute the system of tariffs that, as he shows in a long and entertaining as well as instructive historical aside, helped crucially in building U.S. wealth and power. Such a conservatism puts him in step with the likes of Ralph Nader, Jesse Jackson, and AFL-CIO president John Sweeney — as Sweeney himself has noted.  From Kirkus Reviews: Whatever ones politics, it is impossible not to marvel at Buchanan’s energy, individuality, and certainty about the world. The unique thing about Buchanan is not that he defies labeling, but rather that so many borderline oxymoronic labels apply: populist Republican partisan; strident nostalgic nationalist; social conservative intent on stirring things up. Buchanan begins with a harangue about free traders killing America, follows with a protectionist’s history of America, and concludes with recent events that indicate the forces of good may yet triumph over the evil of free trade. This seems to be the culture war Buchanan wants to fight and where he toys with moving beyond strong arguments to demagogic rhetoric. Inspiring and infuriating.  From Commentary: That Buchanan’s ideas are problematic is putting things mildly. There is, for one thing, the unmistakable whiff of conspiracy-mongering in his analyses. His account of the global economic order is stocked with pointed references to such nemeses of the hard Right as "one-worlders," the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission. Buchanan seems blind to the fact that countries (including most notably Japan) that have followed the course he advocates for the U.S., (resisting participation in the liberalized global marketplace), have recently been suffering stagflation, high unemployment, and slow economic growth, while the U.S., blandly indifferent to his advice, has prospered. All in all, Buchanan’s promise that tariffs are the key to a golden economic age is tantamount to consumer fraud.  From The Nation: … a hard-edged volume loaded with populist invective to back up policies that cannot be dismissed as the usual pap … His work-in-progress populism is riddled with inconsistencies …. Still, of all the loudmouths on the political scene, Buchanan poses the most trenchant questions.  From The Manchester Union Leader: Pat Buchanan has written a nationalist manifesto, a ringing call to arms, a declaration of war on the globalists even in his own party…. The Great Betrayal: How American Sovereignty and Social Justice Are Being Sacrificed to the Gods of the Global Economy is vintage Buchanan, full of the cut-and-thrust we’ve come to expect from "Pitchfork Pat," the populist Prophet of Protectionism. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0316115185/ref=d…

Response:

 > Wake up and try to become a little more familiar with the man who you so > admire. Follows a few excerpts from the Reform Party platform:

I don’t need to go there.    I know what is there. > It doesn’t take ultra-sophisticated interpretation of the words to > recognize their ambition for economic isolationism.

Nothing in there about "isolationism".  You are strictly paranoic!   Take your meds and sleep it off. platform do you not favor?   Let us discuss one or two or more of them. Compare it to either the GOP or the DEM platform (if you can find them). McDave

Response:

> Show me ONE example in his writings or in his interviews wherein he urges > "isolation" (economic/trade/scientific, etc.) from the other > nations/societies of this world.

OK, try this one: The Great Betrayal : How American Sovereignty and Social Justice Are Being Sacrificed to the Gods of the Global Economy, by Patrick J. Buchanan  From Amazon.com: The Great Betrayal is an economic manifesto that promotes what Buchanan calls "economic nationalism." Buchanan offers a protectionist political agenda — one that many modern conservatives may not like, but one that Buchanan says puts him in the fine tradition of Washington, Lincoln, and Theodore Roosevelt. A forceful polemic challenging elite economic opinion.  From The Atlantic Monthly: Despite its one-sided arguments and hyperbolic claims, The Great Betrayal ought to stir discussion of alternatives to the free-market internationalist status quo. Contrary to the best hopes of its advocates, the status quo has not extinguished the flames of nationalism but may actually be feeding them.  From Booklist: The once (and future?) maverick presidential candidate puts his best foot forward in a clear and cogent argument for protective tariffs and against doctrinaire free trade. His recipe is to reinstitute the system of tariffs that, as he shows in a long and entertaining as well as instructive historical aside, helped crucially in building U.S. wealth and power. Such a conservatism puts him in step with the likes of Ralph Nader, Jesse Jackson, and AFL-CIO president John Sweeney — as Sweeney himself has noted.  From Kirkus Reviews: Whatever ones politics, it is impossible not to marvel at Buchanan’s energy, individuality, and certainty about the world. The unique thing about Buchanan is not that he defies labeling, but rather that so many borderline oxymoronic labels apply: populist Republican partisan; strident nostalgic nationalist; social conservative intent on stirring things up. Buchanan begins with a harangue about free traders killing America, follows with a protectionist’s history of America, and concludes with recent events that indicate the forces of good may yet triumph over the evil of free trade. This seems to be the culture war Buchanan wants to fight and where he toys with moving beyond strong arguments to demagogic rhetoric. Inspiring and infuriating.  From Commentary: That Buchanan’s ideas are problematic is putting things mildly. There is, for one thing, the unmistakable whiff of conspiracy-mongering in his analyses. His account of the global economic order is stocked with pointed references to such nemeses of the hard Right as "one-worlders," the Council on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission. Buchanan seems blind to the fact that countries (including most notably Japan) that have followed the course he advocates for the U.S., (resisting participation in the liberalized global marketplace), have recently been suffering stagflation, high unemployment, and slow economic growth, while the U.S., blandly indifferent to his advice, has prospered. All in all, Buchanan’s promise that tariffs are the key to a golden economic age is tantamount to consumer fraud.  From The Nation: … a hard-edged volume loaded with populist invective to back up policies that cannot be dismissed as the usual pap … His work-in-progress populism is riddled with inconsistencies …. Still, of all the loudmouths on the political scene, Buchanan poses the most trenchant questions.  From The Manchester Union Leader: Pat Buchanan has written a nationalist manifesto, a ringing call to arms, a declaration of war on the globalists even in his own party…. The Great Betrayal: How American Sovereignty and Social Justice Are Being Sacrificed to the Gods of the Global Economy is vintage Buchanan, full of the cut-and-thrust we’ve come to expect from "Pitchfork Pat," the populist Prophet of Protectionism. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0316115185/ref=d…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dear Dave, > What do you expect from the Federal Gov’t? How would you suggest the > Feds go about fufilling your expectations? > Sincerely > Cochon Capitaliste > Dear Cappy; > "Fulfilling my expectations"  is certainly an odd way to frame your > question. > But, it is easily answered. > Until we as a people (legal citizens/voters all) can send some wise, > intelligent, strong, and insightful, LEADERS down to the Washington, D.C., > I do NOT expect the Fed. to do much of anything to correct the major ills > of > our nation.   The carelessness, laziness, of the Fed. and their sellout to > global corporations and foreign interests are the reasons we are into this > mess. > Foreign lobbies have spent around $1 Billion in Washington over the past > few > years.     That money was VERY WELL SPENT from their standpoint.

Your reply it seems puts the entire problem in perspective.  You are expressing your opinion on what has to be done, and of course there are others who would strongly disagree with your opinion, and some may believe that your solution is the absolutely wrong solution.  So, we are left with the question what is really the "right" path to take, or is there really a "right"path.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Dear Dave, >> What do you expect from the Federal Gov’t? How would you suggest the >> Feds go about fufilling your expectations? >> Sincerely >> Cochon Capitaliste > Dear Cappy; > "Fulfilling my expectations"  is certainly an odd way to frame your > question. > But, it is easily answered. > Until we as a people (legal citizens/voters all) can send some wise, > intelligent, strong, and insightful, LEADERS down to the Washington, D.C., > I do NOT expect the Fed. to do much of anything to correct the major ills > of > our nation.   The carelessness, laziness, of the Fed. and their sellout to > global corporations and foreign interests are the reasons we are into this > mess. > Foreign lobbies have spent around $1 Billion in Washington over the past > few > years.     That money was VERY WELL SPENT from their standpoint. > Your reply it seems puts the entire problem in perspective.  You are > expressing your opinion on what has to be done, and of course there are > others who would strongly disagree with your opinion, and some may believe > that your solution is the absolutely wrong solution.  So, we are left with > the question what is really the "right" path to take, or is there really a > "right"path.

Jerry; Well, when this "Wrong" path we trod becomes so tortuous, tedious, disastrous, and financially calamitous, as to cause MAJOR unrest among our legal citizens, then as some point along the way a decision will be made to give some serious thought to any other path that holds a reasonable promise of success in maintaining the prestige and sovereignty of our beloved nation.   ANY path that can insure these things will be the "Right" path. Check out ol’ Pat and Bay and their "theamericancause".    You’ll be glad you did. http://www.theamericancause.org/ God Bless America, McDave

Response:

<snipped> I notice that you in no way addressed your gross error that I pointed out. Buchanan is NOT the extreme isolationist you conjure him up to Show me ONE example in his writings or in his interviews wherein he urges "isolation" (economic/trade/scientific, etc.) from the other nations/societies of this world.   What he does strongly recommend is equal rights for the U.S. of A. in ALL our foreign agreements and treaties. You write of "confusion".    Yes, you probably have a personal grudge against him.   As a result you are confusing your petty grudge with the well being of your homeland !!!   Wake up and fly right  !! McDave in Maryland "A Faire Lande of Pleasant Living"

Response:

> . . . you are confusing your petty grudge with the well > being of your homeland !!!   Wake up and fly right  !!

Wake up and try to become a little more familiar with the man who you so admire. Follows a few excerpts from the Reform Party platform: http://www.reformparty.org/platform.htm It doesn’t take ultra-sophisticated interpretation of the words to recognize their ambition for economic isolationism. Isolationism never has worked and never will work, anywhere in the world. Buchanan and the Reform Party are merely quaint kooks. Even though their message may on some subjects resonate favorably with some, their total program is nothing but a recipe for disaster. Reform Party of the USA Issues Committee Final Report as approved by the 2003 RPUSA Convention (October 10, 2003) from Valli Sharpe-Geisler, Issues Committee Chair A)   Trade/Jobs We believe workers should be encouraged to organize and practice collective bargaining. We oppose the efforts to relocate American jobs offshore. We stand for the promotion of higher wage jobs. C)   Corporate Oversight – General          1)   Congress shall fulfill their Constitutional oversight obligation to insure that citizens are not subject to predatory practices by Interstate and international corporations.          2)   Disallow corporate exploitation of offshore tax havens used to evade US taxes.          3)   Expand whistle blower protection and expand the scope of the False Claims Act to provide "bounty provisions" for whistle blowers and watchdogs who report financial crimes.          4)   The United States government should be more proactive in opposing mergers of large corporations and in restructuring those that have achieved an excessively controlling position. E)  Immigration Although we cherish and honor America’s proud immigrant history and traditions, we must recognize the reality that today our nation is no longer an unsettled frontier.  Immigration levels have risen to well over a million a year and the US Census Bureau projects, at this level, the population to exceed 400 million in less than fifty years. The Reform Party supports:          (1) Banning the mass importation of temporary foreign workers via the abuse of the H1-B and the L-1 programs whose impact is to hold down the wages, working conditions and incomes of American workers, both immigrant and native-born alike.          (2) A temporary Freeze on all immigration, except for spouses and minor children of US citizens until the these are assimilated.          (3) Authorizations and appropriations necessary to secure our borders by unitizing technologies that enhance our border patrol and enforcement of US immigration laws.          (4)Use of the National Guard or any branch of armed forces to help secure and patrol our borders.          (5)  Employers shall be legally liable for insuring that foreign workers produce appropriate documentation allowing foreign workers to live and work in the United States   Employers shall be legally liable for the public and private direct and indirect costs associated with non-legal immigrants.          (6) A national campaign to assimilate new immigrants and allow them to fully participate in American life by teaching and requiring new immigrants to learn English, American history, government, American tradition and values.          (7)  A Constitutional Amendment that will not give automatic citizenship to children born on US soil to parents OTHER THAN legal citizens of the US.          (8)  No national, state or local government assistance of any kind for education, Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid shall be provided for anyone that is not a legal alien or US citizen.          (9)  The United States Government automatically expel any immigrant found to be illegal. Industry Standards: American companies or their subsidiaries that operate internationally should comply with United States Standards for Safety, Environmental, and child labor laws at all facilities.          2a)  Foreign entities operating within the United States must comply with all national, state, and local laws as they apply.          2b)   Stiff penalties should be levied against corporations convicted of routinely violating clean air or water standards.          2c)  All present and future trade agreements should be tied to preserving favorable environmental standards. G)   Foreign Policy Objectives The Reform Party of the United States insists on a foreign policy consistent with the purpose of our federal government as indicated in the preamble of our Constitution.  To that end, we believe that the following are necessary components of a sound foreign policy for the United States. 2)   Nonintervention In the words of John Quincy Adams, "Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her [America's] heart, her benedictions, and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy."          2a)  We respect the sovereignty of all nations, and reject the belief that the United States should use its military power to engage in nation-building.          2b)  The United States should not be the policeman of the world.          2c)   The United States should no longer support foreign despots who utilize torture, murder and genocide to control their people.  Rather than supporting these regimes we should utilize pressure through international cooperation, including volunteer boycotts. 5)  Trade and Foreign Policy Technology is a key component of national power.  It is the bedrock of our economy, and helps us maintain a military second to none.          5a)  To prevent advanced technologies from being obtained by foreign powers, considerations of national security shall be paramount in the formulation of our trade policies and in the conduct of our trade affairs.          5b)  Substantial penalties, civil and/or criminal, must be imposed upon any corporation or government entity, to include those personally responsible, found to jeopardize national security as a result of technology transfer or other actions.

Response:

> My question was why focus only on foreign lobbies?  Is your position > that anything a domestic lobby lobbies for is a good thing simply by > virtue of being domestic?  Are bribery and extortion in the interests > of domestic groups/corporations OK?

I wouldn’t say they are all OK.   But I’d always prefer them to foreign lobbies. > I’d also be interested in knowing how you’d separate them.  Isn’t it > possible that the Four Leaf Clover Growers Association could be in > cahoots with the French four leaf clover growers?  Or that the largest > four leaf clover producer and purveyor in this country could be > primarily owned by a Japanese company?    Emily

All legal lobbies of our Fed.Gov. must register as such and must state who/what they represent.     It is certainly not a perfect process but the law was passed expressly for the purpose of separating domestic influence from the influence of foreign powers who would like nothing better than the disintigration of the U.S. of A…… But, you are right.   It is a confused process.   That is why it is ESSENTIAL that we vote in some people for whom political power is NOT a way to create a financial dynasty for themselves and their offspring for the next century but, rather, to keep our country intact, powerful, and respected around the world. Public office should NOT be something that one does for 50 years!   Term limits would be a fine approach to improving our leadership qualities but I doubt we will ever see it because Congress, itself, must approve it. . . . McDave

Response:

> What makes you think that our "leaders" are not selected by an intelligent > and insightful ruling circle? That is not you and me, that is people like > Sam Wyly, Rupert Murdoch, H. Ross Perot, Sam Richardson, and so on. Their > interests are not your interests. So far as I can tell, our "leaders" serve > them, not us, and serve them well.   Do you imagine that you and I select

our  > leaders by casting our votes between watching one stupid sit-com and the  > next? We take the time out > between sit-coms to vote, and that does it?

I don’t watch sit-coms.  I don’t know how you decide upon a leader to vote for but I decide after reading their books, their statements, and watching interviews on TV.   Their interests may not be my interests (or your interests) but at least I can try to make that determination if they can get their name on a ballot.  > > Foreign lobbies have spent around $1 Billion in Washington over the past > few years.     That money was VERY WELL SPENT from their standpoint. > Indeed. And you spent how much to get the leaders you want?  Hap

I spend as much as I can with my limited resources.   I try to influence those around me in a modest way as often as I can and in every way I can (I think I could convince you).. Our nation has not always, until recently, been a plutocracy; in the past we have had a large number of powerful leaders which had only modest wealth. And—– if enough citizens (legal citizens) could combine their modest resources, they can have a substantial influence.   Public Citizen and other such groups have had a bit of success and gained some influence by that means.   Successful or not, we should NEVER give up.   Have you ever heard the saying, "Government of, by, and for, the PEOPLE "  ? ANY politician caught associating, even in a casual/informal way,  with foreign lobbies, should be recalled, publicly shunned, and forced to work for 15 years in the field of sewer maintenance.   Out government is NOT like the government of Mexico!    (YET.) McDave

Response:

Dear Cappy Porker; "Mess".    Not referring to myself.    I am in excellent shape for the shape I’m in (old/decrepit/semi-senile).   I’m well armed, skinny, and have a full tank of gasoline.  Now that is true happiness! My oh my,  it does sound as it you have found a real paradise on Earth there in the outskirts of gay Paree!   Does the sun really hold up until you are ready for it to set?   Now that is really something. But — I’d advise against too much traveling about.   Once you’ve been to all the tourist traps around the globe and realize that the people and the "things" are just the same here as there, you might become disillusioned. Also, you can catch any number of infectious plagues travelling about like that.  Also, airline travel nowadays is an awkward and tedious scenario. (You don’t have your own jet aircraft, do you?).    So, with a nice back yard and warm sunshine like you must have there in France, I’m surprised you’d want to go ANYWHERE. McDave in Maryland "A Faire Lande of Pleasant Living"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dear McDave, > I don’t know what kind of "mess" you find yourself. I may be fat and > dumb, but I’m happy. France is not Maryland but it is very, very nice > and there are much worse places to live; for example, imagine living > next door to some of the jerks who post messages in soc.retirement! I > used to live in Silver Springs, MD a long time ago right next to Rock > Creek Park. Here, just east of Paris, the sun doesn’t set in the > summertime until after 10PM, we get some snow in the winter, but not > much, and right now there are flowers all over the place. I see lots of > young married couples with lots of kids. My wife’s two sons each have > three. We just spent all of August on the French and Italian Riviera, > we got nice and tan and ate very well. Copenhagen, Berlin, Vienna, > London and Poznan are not very far from Paris so we will probably just > lock the door to the apartment and take the train to one of those > places for a long weekend this fall. We will probably visit New York > City around Christmas. The US seems very far away, probably because it > is. > Cochon Capitaliste

Response:

> He’s already > started his run for the nomination in 2008 by hooking up with groups > such as TheAmericanCause and trying to launch a new isolationist magazine.

Heh, heh, heh, . . . .   You don’t know what you’re writing about.  Buchanan and his sister, Bay, CREATED theamericancause!!   They also have large inputs to TheAmericanConservative publication. And, I don’t need to see your list.   I’ve read almost everything he has If you had a better appreciate of global politics you would NEVER use the word "Isolationist" in referring to Pat Buchanan.    There are an infinite number of levels between "Isolationism" and the naive dancing to the "Global Village" bongo-drums tune.    Buchanan’s philosophy lies at a moderate and sensible level between the extremes; exactly the level we will need to attain to retain our sovereignty and our status as a leader of nations (but NOT some sort of global empire ruled by someone with a grand "messiah" complex!). Buchanan may be a bit "aged" to make the run in 2008.  But, I cannot but believe there are many other intelligent, insightful, patriotic, potentially-great Statesmen out there in our land that could serve as his descendant. I could well be that the U.S. Citizenry (legal citizens & voters one and all) are finally waking up to what the major parties have done to our beloved nation. But (IMHO) TIME is not on our side.    Let us hope that something good can happen with the 2008 election. And, thanks for your wishes for our good fortune.   You will be with us when you fully appreciate what is at stake. McDave

Response:

Dear Dave, What do you expect from the Federal Gov’t? How would you suggest the Feds go about fufilling your expectations? Sincerely Cochon Capitaliste

Response:

> Dear Dave, > What do you expect from the Federal Gov’t? How would you suggest the > Feds go about fufilling your expectations? > Sincerely > Cochon Capitaliste

Dear Cappy; "Fulfilling my expectations"  is certainly an odd way to frame your question. But, it is easily answered. Until we as a people (legal citizens/voters all) can send some wise, intelligent, strong, and insightful, LEADERS down to the Washington, D.C., I do NOT expect the Fed. to do much of anything to correct the major ills of our nation.   The carelessness, laziness, of the Fed. and their sellout to global corporations and foreign interests are the reasons we are into this mess. Foreign lobbies have spent around $1 Billion in Washington over the past few years.     That money was VERY WELL SPENT from their standpoint. McDave

Response:

Dear McDave, I don’t know what kind of "mess" you find yourself. I may be fat and dumb, but I’m happy. France is not Maryland but it is very, very nice and there are much worse places to live; for example, imagine living next door to some of the jerks who post messages in soc.retirement! I used to live in Silver Springs, MD a long time ago right next to Rock Creek Park. Here, just east of Paris, the sun doesn’t set in the summertime until after 10PM, we get some snow in the winter, but not much, and right now there are flowers all over the place. I see lots of young married couples with lots of kids. My wife’s two sons each have three. We just spent all of August on the French and Italian Riviera, we got nice and tan and ate very well. Copenhagen, Berlin, Vienna, London and Poznan are not very far from Paris so we will probably just lock the door to the apartment and take the train to one of those places for a long weekend this fall. We will probably visit New York City around Christmas. The US seems very far away, probably because it is. Cochon Capitaliste

Response:

 > The thing that bothers me most is Buchanan’s isolationism. I am not   > convinced that in this day and time the U.S.A. can build a fence    > around the country and prevent any goods or people from coming in or  > going out, as he says he would do to solve all our problems. > If you were to read extensively, you’d know that the philosophy of > TheAmericanCause offers more to solve these many problems than any other of > the prominent movements. The Dem and GOP outfits have chosen to ignore > them. They will address them in no serious way. That is sad indeed. > Read more of Buchanan’s books and articles and you will be convinced.

I judge Buchanan by his own words, not the mud his ‘enemies’ sling. Although he’s been remarkably quiet the past few years, he was almost ubiqitous when he was running as the Reform Party candidate during the 2000 election. My opinion of him (and his ilk) was formed watching his performance on discussion panels and when giving speeches. He’s already started his run for the nomination in 2008 by hooking up with groups such as TheAmericanCause and trying to launch a new isolationist magazine. If you would like to read Buchanan’s own words, I would suggest that you check out http://www.buchanan.org/000-p-articles.html. Of course, as with all politicians, some sophisticated analysis of his words is required to understand fully what he is saying. Buchanan was an isolationist AmericaFirster in 2000, and he hasn’t changed his attitude. Good luck in 2008.

Response:

 > The two major parties no longer represent the best interests of the > Middle-class, Working, Legal, citizens of our beloved land.   They are owned > by global corporations and foreign interests.   It is time for MAJOR, repeat > MAJOR, changes.

The thing that bothers me most is Buchanan’s isolationism. I am not convinced that in this day and time the U.S.A. can build a fence around the country and prevent any goods or people from coming in or going out, as he says he would do to solve all our problems. The global system exists and is expanding and improving every day. I have great trouble visualizing how we would "drop out" of that system and go it completely alone.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  > The two major parties no longer represent the best interests of the > Middle-class, Working, Legal, citizens of our beloved land.   They are owned > by global corporations and foreign interests.   It is time for MAJOR, repeat > MAJOR, changes. > The thing that bothers me most is Buchanan’s isolationism. I am not > convinced that in this day and time the U.S.A. can build a fence around > the country and prevent any goods or people from coming in or going out, > as he says he would do to solve all our problems. > The global system exists and is expanding and improving every day. I > have great trouble visualizing how we would "drop out" of that system > and go it completely alone.

John, I think you entirely miss Buchanan’s intent when he calls for "America FIRST".    In no place in his writings or talk will you hear "isolation". That is a word that his enemies use to denigrate him. He is for trade policies that are balanced; NOT TILTED to favor the Chinese and other countries that use child labor and slavery to compete. No way his intent is to "drop out".    Far from it!! But, we cannot cannot go on having the annual deficits and trade imbalances that we have had for a decade or more; actually the neo-Cons and Reagan started it, and the Dems. were too dumb to realize what was happening and here we are. Eight $Trillion in debt; debt increasingly owned by foreign interests. That must stop or we will end up with inflation that will make the one in Germany in the 1920’s seem as child’s play. We are fast losing many of the features that  hold our culture together in this nation.   Our language is one of them.   Our religion (Judeo/Christian) is another. Our public school system teaching common societal/cultural features is another. We have no offcial/controlled geographical borders. Our people will save nothing.   They want instant gratification.   They want the government to give them anything they want from womb to tomb.   They do not want to be self reliant.   They want "gimme’, gimme’, gimme’, and then gimme’ some mo’.  The word goes out around the world; why do you think 70 percent of the world’s population wants to come here and take advantage of our naive welfare policies  ???   But, it’s all done with borrowed money and that means eventually the borrowed chickens will "Come Home To Roost" ! If you were to read extensively, you’d know that the philosophy of TheAmericanCause offers more to solve these many problems than any other of the prominent movements.   The Dem and GOP outfits have chosen to ignore them.   They will address them in no serious way.   That is sad indeed. Read more of Buchanan’s books and articles and you will be convinced. McDave

Response:

> It’s increasingly difficult to get wise, intelligent, strong, and > insightful leaders when only the super squeaky clean who’ve never > committed the slightest blunder can hope to survive the nomination and > election process. > Emily

Boy, I’ll second that. The Honorables are so busy trying to sink their enemy’s battleship that I’m frankly amazed that so many ‘good’ people voluntarily subject themselves to the process. Can’t help but wonder how soon it becomes not just difficult, but impossible to get wise, intelligent, strong and insightful leaders to willingly subject themselves to the mudslinging. For every political hack like the ex-FEMA guy, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of real leaders who’ve survived the process and are doing their jobs well.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Dear Dave, >> What do you expect from the Federal Gov’t? How would you suggest the >> Feds go about fufilling your expectations? >> Sincerely >> Cochon Capitaliste >Dear Cappy; >"Fulfilling my expectations"  is certainly an odd way to frame your >question. >But, it is easily answered. >Until we as a people (legal citizens/voters all) can send some wise, >intelligent, strong, and insightful, LEADERS down to the Washington, D.C., >I do NOT expect the Fed. to do much of anything to correct the major ills of >our nation.   The carelessness, laziness, of the Fed. and their sellout to >global corporations and foreign interests are the reasons we are into this >mess. > It’s increasingly difficult to get wise, intelligent, strong, and > insightful leaders when only the super squeaky clean who’ve never > committed the slightest blunder can hope to survive the nomination and > election process. >Foreign lobbies have spent around $1 Billion in Washington over the past few >years.     That money was VERY WELL SPENT from their standpoint. > Why focus only on foreign lobbies?  The ones representing domestic > interests appear to be getting plenty for their money, too. > Emily

You MUST BE JESTING!!    Squeaky clean?????   Take a good look at what the two major parties nominated last time around !!   Slightest blunder?—-John Kerry was one continuous blunder from birth onward!  <chuckle> Well, there is a WORLD of difference between domestic lobbies and foreign lobbies.  Special interests, wealth, production, business, looking out for our legal citizens WITHIN our beloved nation is one thing; that is the reason lobbying is allowed at all.   But, lobbying/bribing/extortion in the interest of foreign powers/entities is an ALTOGETHER different thing.   I McDave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dear Dave, > What do you expect from the Federal Gov’t? How would you suggest the > Feds go about fufilling your expectations? > Sincerely > Cochon Capitaliste > Dear Cappy; > "Fulfilling my expectations"  is certainly an odd way to frame your > question. > But, it is easily answered. > Until we as a people (legal citizens/voters all) can send some wise, > intelligent, strong, and insightful, LEADERS down to the Washington, D.C., > I do NOT expect the Fed. to do much of anything to correct the major ills > of > our nation.   The carelessness, laziness, of the Fed. and their sellout to > global corporations and foreign interests are the reasons we are into this > mess.

What makes you think that our "leaders" are not selected by an intelligent and insightful ruling circle? That is not you and me, that is people like Sam Wyly, Rupert Murdoch, H. Ross Perot, Sam Richardson, and so on. Their interests are not your interests. So far as I can tell, our "leaders" serve them, not us, and serve them well. Do you imagine that you and I select our leaders by casting our votes between watching one stupid sit-com and the next? We take the time out between sit-coms to vote, and that does it? > Foreign lobbies have spent around $1 Billion in Washington over the past > few > years.     That money was VERY WELL SPENT from their standpoint.

Indeed. And you spent how much to get the leaders you want? Hap

Response:

Amen, Bro.   !!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Interested in the 2008 election?   Go to the site below.  Down a short > ways from the top you will find an underlined heading "Lou Dobbs > Interviews Pat Buchanan" .     Click on it and you can download a > short video with their comments on what will be needed in 2008. > They are both so correct.   The two major parties no longer represent > the best interests of the Middle-class, Working, Legal, citizens of > our beloved land.   They are owned by global corporations and foreign > interests.   It is time for MAJOR, repeat MAJOR, changes.       Time > to wake up ! > http://www.theamericancause.org/ > God Bless the U.S. of A. > McDave in Maryland "A Faire Lande of Pleasant Living" > And the transition started over 50 years ago. > If some good people would really want a change instead of talking about all > the problems they would read up on this matter. > Pats’ site is a good place for that as he is not a radical, only a good > American. > — > "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should > have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence > from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own > government." – George Washington

Response:

No, Jerry.    Actually, it may be TOO LATE   !!! Take a peek at that web site. It is ALL AMERICAN  and issues pure and valid and trustworthy information !! McDave

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not really….way too early. > Interested in the 2008 election?   Go to the site below.  Down a short > ways > from the top you will find an underlined heading "Lou Dobbs Interviews Pat > Buchanan" .     Click on it and you can download a short video with their > comments on what will be needed in 2008.     They are both so correct. > The > two major parties no longer represent the best interests of the > Middle-class, Working, Legal, citizens of our beloved land.   They are > owned > by global corporations and foreign interests.   It is time for MAJOR, > repeat > MAJOR, changes.       Time to wake up ! > http://www.theamericancause.org/ > God Bless the U.S. of A. > McDave in Maryland "A Faire Lande of Pleasant Living"

Response:

Not really….way too early.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Interested in the 2008 election?   Go to the site below.  Down a short > ways > from the top you will find an underlined heading "Lou Dobbs Interviews Pat > Buchanan" .     Click on it and you can download a short video with their > comments on what will be needed in 2008.     They are both so correct. > The > two major parties no longer represent the best interests of the > Middle-class, Working, Legal, citizens of our beloved land.   They are > owned > by global corporations and foreign interests.   It is time for MAJOR, > repeat > MAJOR, changes.       Time to wake up ! > http://www.theamericancause.org/ > God Bless the U.S. of A. > McDave in Maryland "A Faire Lande of Pleasant Living"

Response:

Interested in the 2008 election?   Go to the site below.  Down a short ways from the top you will find an underlined heading "Lou Dobbs Interviews Pat Buchanan" .     Click on it and you can download a short video with their comments on what will be needed in 2008.     They are both so correct.   The two major parties no longer represent the best interests of the Middle-class, Working, Legal, citizens of our beloved land.   They are owned by global corporations and foreign interests.   It is time for MAJOR, repeat MAJOR, changes.       Time to wake up ! http://www.theamericancause.org/ God Bless the U.S. of A. McDave in Maryland "A Faire Lande of Pleasant Living"

Response:

>>How soon the fool forgot that it was angry Arabs that were here training >for their mission on 9/11. > Not against us

Yes, against us Americans! Are you not part of us Americans? > They tried to train here,

they didn’t just try, they did train here. > but alert instructors and FBI agents foiled their plot.

If that was true the two big skyscrapers would still be standing in NYC.

Response:

>>>How soon the fool forgot that it was angry Arabs that were here >>training for their mission on 9/11. > Not against us > Yes, against us Americans! Are you not part of us Americans?

I am, but I have my doubts about you and that moronic leader of yours.  My American stands for equality, respect, fairness and honesty.  Yours is an embarrassment, little more than a whore house with an illegal distillery. > They tried to train here, > they didn’t just try, they did train here.

Not here, our citizens are educated.  They think for themselves, question authority, analyze critically.  Apparently you folks are so dumb that you gave away the farm without a second thought. > but alert instructors and FBI agents foiled their plot. > If that was true the two big skyscrapers would still be standing in NYC.

They weren’t destroyed because of us, we saved the White House, you destroyed the WTC buildings and damaged the pentagon.  When are you going to realize that our success and your failure is due entirely to your lack of education, intelligence, and learning from experience. — Glenn

Response:

>>> You may not know, but we in this part of the country know.  We know >> that many Arabs visited us before the war and not one raised a hand in >> anger. > 9   1   1 >What has 911 got to do with the invasion of Iraq?  What hand was raised >against "this part of the country?"  Ever?  The 911 attack was against >symbols, symbols of global domination.  

And unfortunately, those symbols of global domination under Bush have become far more pronounced leading to a large increase in terrorists. As for the illegal invasion of Iraq so much of American hope and prosperity has been lost because of it.  And 130,000 young troops are faced with living in a shooting gallery of Bush’s creation where they are killed, wounded and mentally shattered on a daily basis. Is Bush supporting the troops?   How could he be when he got them into the mess in the first place – an illegal war that should never have happened. "The Bush administration is damned by its gross incompetence. Bush has squandered the lives and health of thousands of people. He has run through hundreds of billions of borrowed dollars. He has lost America

RIP, Mr. Doohan… -DC ‘Star Trek’ Star James Doohan Dies Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:54 AM EDT The Associated Press By BOB THOMAS LOS ANGELES (AP)