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How the Libs forget so quickly…. London Sunday Times BYLINE: James Adams It was the moment President Bill Clinton wanted to restore his tattered reputation with the military before his departure for the D-Day celebrations in Europe this week, James Adams reports. He had just presented posthumous Congressional Medals of Honour, America’s highest military decoration, to the widows of two soldiers for valour in Somalia. After inviting the families for a moment of quiet reflection in the Oval Office, the president approached Herbert Shughart, the father of one of the two soldiers, and offered his hand. To his astonishment the handshake was declined. ‘You are not fit to be president of the United States,’ said Shughart Senior. ‘The blame for my son’s death rests with the White House and with you. You are not fit to command.’ The president reeled and the unprecedented onslaught continued for some minutes. According to witnesses it was a ‘highly charged emotional moment’ which resulted in Clinton trying to explain to Shughart,Sr. why the events of that day last October were not his fault. Shughart and his colleague, both sergeants, were killed trying to rescue fellow rangers from a vicious fire-fight in which 18 died and 75 were wounded. A later Pentagon investigation revealed that the troops had been refused the right equipment and there was no political or military plan to justify the Americ an presence in Somalia. Although the president has tried to escape the blame, he is largely credited with the failure of the whole American effort to bring peace to Somalia. According to witnesses to the Oval Office scene, the Shughart family remained unconvinced by the president’s arguments. ‘The medal doesn’t help anything, other than that we are grateful that Randy will be remembered in such an honourable way,’ said Lois Shughart, the soldier’s mother. Since the row, the White House has been desperate to contain the damage in advance of the D-Day celebrations. ‘Everyone wants to make sure that the president arrives in Europe as the commander in chief and not as a man seen as unfit to lead,’ said one White House source. Weeks of feverish preparation have gone into the European trip to commemorate the Normandy landings and it has been designed to attract reflected glory for the president, who avoided the draft during the Vietnam war. Yesterday in his Memorial Day address, the day when America honours its war dead, Clinton said there were limits to committing US troops abroad in the new post-Cold War era. The greatest challenge, he said, came from the ‘the smouldering embers of ethnic and religious hatreds’ in places like Bosnia and Rwanda. ‘We cannot dispatch our troops to solve every problem where our values are offended by human misery, and we should not,’ Clinton said. ‘We are prepared to defend ourselves and our fundamental interests when they are threatened.’

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PLONK!

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When everything is going wrong for your fucking heroes, you blame Clinton. So much for personal responsibility, huh, Ralph? What a pussy.

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…

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> When everything is going wrong for your fucking heroes, you blame Clinton. > So much for personal responsibility, huh, Ralph? What a pussy.

boy howdy.

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Ms. Rice says "We go with the information we have now." because we didn’t know then what we know sol that excuses everything tomorrow.

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"…" Of course, his middle name is "… …. .. – …. . .- -.."

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>When everything is going wrong for your fucking heroes, you blame Clinton. >So much for personal responsibility, huh, Ralph? What a pussy.

LOL! You read the 1 in 100 posts about Clinton and then say it’s all about Clinton? What a pussy. PLONK!

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>boy howdy.

Are you riding Mulay right now?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->When everything is going wrong for your fucking heroes, you blame Clinton. >So much for personal responsibility, huh, Ralph? What a pussy. > LOL! You read the 1 in 100 posts about Clinton and then say it’s all > about Clinton? > What a pussy. > PLONK!

Oh, boohoo. I’ve been plonked. Will my life EVER be the same??? Sob! Sob! I guess I will have to fall on my soldering iron….!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How the Libs forget so quickly…. > London Sunday Times > BYLINE: James Adams > It was the moment President Bill Clinton wanted to restore his > tattered reputation with the military before his departure for the > D-Day celebrations in Europe this week, James Adams reports. > He had just presented posthumous Congressional Medals of Honour, > America’s highest military decoration, to the widows of two soldiers > for valour in Somalia. After inviting the families for a moment of > quiet reflection in the Oval Office, the president approached Herbert > Shughart, the father of one of the two soldiers, and offered his hand. > To his astonishment the handshake was declined. ‘You are not fit to be > president of the United States,’ said Shughart Senior. ‘The blame for > my son’s death rests with the White House and with you. You are not > fit to command.’

I did not like the Clintons one bit during their administration.  However, my political views didn’t lead to the level of hatred that is common to the Bush’s opponents of today.  My opinion is that the Clintons’ inactions regarding direct attacks and threats from Muslim terrorists are the chief reasons we are fighting extremists right now. Having said that, I remember the incident in the above post and I remember being appalled by the statement made by the distraught father.  IMO, it was uncalled for.  I thought it was not only disrespectful to the office of the President but also to the memory of the soldier who was killed.  The father was not in control of his grief should have stayed home that day. Steve

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> I did not like the Clintons one bit during their administration.

Do you mean the administration that provided a vibrant economy, more jobs and a balanced budget?

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > How the Libs forget so quickly…. > London Sunday Times > BYLINE: James Adams > It was the moment President Bill Clinton wanted to restore his > tattered reputation with the military before his departure for the > D-Day celebrations in Europe this week, James Adams reports. > He had just presented posthumous Congressional Medals of Honour, > America’s highest military decoration, to the widows of two soldiers > for valour in Somalia. After inviting the families for a moment of > quiet reflection in the Oval Office, the president approached Herbert > Shughart, the father of one of the two soldiers, and offered his hand. > To his astonishment the handshake was declined. ‘You are not fit to be > president of the United States,’ said Shughart Senior. ‘The blame for > my son’s death rests with the White House and with you. You are not > fit to command.’ > The president reeled and the unprecedented onslaught continued for > some minutes. According to witnesses it was a ‘highly charged > emotional moment’ which resulted in Clinton trying to explain to > Shughart,Sr. why the events of that day last October were not his > fault. > Shughart and his colleague, both sergeants, were killed trying to > rescue fellow rangers from a vicious fire-fight in which 18 died and > 75 > were wounded. A later Pentagon investigation revealed that the troops > had been refused the right equipment and there was no political or > military plan to justify the American presence in Somalia. < snip>

Hey–it sounds JUST LIKE what’s going on now in Iraq! Except that Bush is now responsible for the deaths of over 2,200 US soldiers.  Only 43 died in Somalia.  That makes Bush about 51 times worse than Clinton–and counting. Plus, Clinton didn’t get us into a war by lying to us.  Bush did. Aren’t you the moron, Ralphie.      –E

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according to rumor Clinton didn’t lose one soldier in Kosovo and solved the problem. whereas Bush – dead dead dead incompetant incompetant incompetant.

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>Hey–it sounds JUST LIKE what’s going on now in Iraq! >Except that Bush is now responsible for the deaths of over 2,200 US >soldiers.  Only 43 died in Somalia.  That makes Bush about 51 times >worse than Clinton–and counting.

HEY… and that means Kennedy and Johnson were about 1400 times worse than Clinton and counting and Reagan was 43 times better. Awesome… >Plus, Clinton didn’t get us into a war by lying to us.  Bush did.

Shit-for-brains here doesn’t realize it was Clinton’s fault that 9/11 and the Iraq war happened in the first place. He let the situation in Iraq get way out of hand and did nothing, ultimately giving Osama confidence that nothing would happen if he took out the WTC, because we were "Paper Tigers". Read it and weep, Lib: http://www.statenews.com/editionsfall97/111497/p1_iraq.html Friday, November 14, 1997 Iraq kicks out U.S. inspectors Rubner said that considerable evidence has been found over the last six years that Saddam violated every U.N. resolution passed in the wake of the Persian Gulf War. McCurry said it was important to hold together the international coalition against Iraq.

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"PARIS (Reuters) – Gangs of youths torched 1,300 vehicles overnight in the 10th consecutive night of violence in Paris’s poor suburbs and major French towns, despite the deployment of thousands of extra police. Cars were burned out in the historic center of Paris for the first time on Saturday night. In the normally quiet Normandy town of Evreux, a shopping mall, 50 vehicles, a post office and two schools went up in flames. Authorities have so far found no way beyond appeals and more police to address a problem with complex social, economic and racial causes. Evreux mayor Jean-Louis Debre, a confidant of President Jacques Chirac and speaker of the lower house of parliament, told France Info radio: "To those responsible for the violence, I want to say: Be serious … If you want to live in a fairer, more fraternal society, this is not how to go about it." The deaths 10 days ago of two youths apparently fleeing police ignited pent up frustrations among young men, many of them Muslims of North and black African origin, at racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their treatment by the police. "Many youths have never seen their parents work and couldn’t hold down a job if they got one," said Claude Chevallier, manager of a burned-out carpet depot in the rundown Paris suburb of Aulnay-sous-Bois. But authorities now say the rolling nightly riots are being organized via the Internet and mobile phones, and have pointed the finger at drug traffickers and Islamist militants. Overnight, 1,295 vehicles were torched across France, the highest total so far, police said. An extra 2,300 officers have been drafted in. Seven police helicopters buzzed over the Paris region through the night, filming disturbances and directing mobile squads to incidents. Overnight, police made 349 arrests. The number of incidents in the Paris region was similar to the night before, but in the provinces it was up sharply. TARNISHED IMAGE The violence has tarnished France’s image abroad, forcing Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin to cancel a trip to Canada, while Russia and the United States have warned their citizens to avoid Paris’s troubled suburbs. Villepin has combined a call for an end to the riots with dialogue with community leaders, youngsters and local officials, and has promised an action plan for 750 tough neighborhoods. "I’ll make proposals as early as this week," the weekly Journal du Dimanche quoted him as saying. But it remained unclear what could stop the violence, though some opposition parties have suggested a symbolic measure — the resignation of Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy. Accused of stoking passions by calling troublemakers "scum," Sarkozy has ignored calls to quit. A survey published on Sunday indicated his public image was holding up, even if many disapproved of his strong language. Villepin also has ambitions to be the right wing’s presidential candidate in 2007 and has tried to position himself as a much more consensual figure than Sarkozy; the effect on the crisis on his ratings is still unclear. With no end in sight to the nights of wailing sirens, acrid smoke, stone-throwing and destruction, residents from all ethnic backgrounds are tiring of the unrest. "My kids can’t sleep at night," said a mother named Samia in Aulnay-sous-Bois. "They hear explosions, they see fires and they think they’re in a war. When the slightest thing happens, they get anxious and say ‘Mama, what’s going on?"’" http://reuters.myway.com/article/20051106/2005-11-06T121732Z_01_MAR22…

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>racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their treatment by the >police.

This is being spun as a Muslim thing, but it’s not — it’s economic. They aren’t "Muslim Insurgents" — these riots are more along the lines of Detriot and Watts in the 1960s.  Those lasted a few days too.

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> >racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their treatment by the >police. > This is being spun as a Muslim thing, but it’s not — it’s economic. > They aren’t "Muslim Insurgents" — these riots are more along the lines > of Detriot and Watts in the 1960s.  Those lasted a few days too.

Yeah; that’s how the "leaders" over there are trying to deal with it, anyway — "understand" them, ‘respect’ them, and oh by the way, make up more social programs to give them shit. Because they’re nice people, they’re just poor. Don’t poor people everywhere burn cars by the hundreds every night for weeks? Suuuuure… it happens all the time in all those countries in Africa where they don’t have a fucking grain of rice because their fucking racist dictators want ALL the money. That’s what they do *all the time* over there — they burn fucking cars. That’s why you can see Africa from space at night. Yup. Let’s see how far this thing has to go before the liberals running everything over there realize that all they have to do is give the thugs ALL the money, and let THEM run everything. THEN they’ll have peace, and all OUR liberals can move there and call it utopia. Shee-it, Lars

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> it’s economic. > They aren’t "Muslim Insurgents" — these riots are more along the lines > of Detriot and Watts in the 1960s

And Brixton/Manchester/Birmingham in the 80’s.

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> that’s how the "leaders" over there are trying to deal with it, > anyway — "understand" them, ‘respect’ them

Understanding and respect. Wouldn’t that be nice. Yet you use the words as derogatory phrase.

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> >racism, unemployment, their marginal place in French society and their

treatment by the >police. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is being spun as a Muslim thing, but it’s not — it’s economic. > They aren’t "Muslim Insurgents" — these riots are more along the lines > of Detriot and Watts in the 1960s.  Those lasted a few days too. > Yeah; that’s how the "leaders" over there are trying to deal with it, > anyway — "understand" them, ‘respect’ them, and oh by the way, make up > more social programs to give them shit. Because they’re nice people, > they’re just poor. Don’t poor people everywhere burn cars by the > hundreds every night for weeks? Suuuuure… it happens all the time in > all those countries in Africa where they don’t have a fucking grain of > rice because their fucking racist dictators want ALL the money. That’s > what they do *all the time* over there — they burn fucking cars. > That’s why you can see Africa from space at night. > Yup. Let’s see how far this thing has to go before the liberals running > everything over there realize that all they have to do is give the > thugs ALL the money, and let THEM run everything. THEN they’ll have > peace, and all OUR liberals can move there and call it utopia. > Shee-it, > Lars

Where immigrants have no incentive for cultural conformity and real assimiliation there will eventually be a social divide that expresses itself the way it has in France.  Splinter groups eventually become large disenfranchised minority groups with a grievance against the parent society. We don’t raise our kids to be outsiders (well, most of us, anyway).  Why should society encourage ethnic minorities to stay outside the cultural mainstream and cripple themselves socially and economically? Jeff

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> > that’s how the "leaders" over there are trying to deal with it, > anyway — "understand" them, ‘respect’ them > Understanding and respect. Wouldn’t that be nice. Yet you use the words > as derogatory phrase.

I use it with contempt for it as a strategy to stop riots that have already begun. If you think that was so wrongheaded of *me*, then why don’t you tell me WHY ISN’T IT WORKING? After all, he called for those things *a week ago*, didn’t he? Lars

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Yo Lertz… I f you knew what the fuck you were talking about, it would be nice.

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Lars you are truly an idiot. "It’s not a political revolution or a Muslim revolution," said Rezzoug [caretaker of the municipal gymnasium and soccer field]. "There’s a lot of rage. Through this burning, they’re saying, ‘I exist, I’m here.’ " As I understand, there’s 60% unemployment in the area where the riots are occuring. Mr Soul

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>>How soon the fool forgot that it was angry Arabs that were here training >for their mission on 9/11. > Not against us

Yes, against us Americans! Are you not part of us Americans? > They tried to train here,

they didn’t just try, they did train here. > but alert instructors and FBI agents foiled their plot.

If that was true the two big skyscrapers would still be standing in NYC.

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>>>How soon the fool forgot that it was angry Arabs that were here >>training for their mission on 9/11. > Not against us > Yes, against us Americans! Are you not part of us Americans?

I am, but I have my doubts about you and that moronic leader of yours.  My American stands for equality, respect, fairness and honesty.  Yours is an embarrassment, little more than a whore house with an illegal distillery. > They tried to train here, > they didn’t just try, they did train here.

Not here, our citizens are educated.  They think for themselves, question authority, analyze critically.  Apparently you folks are so dumb that you gave away the farm without a second thought. > but alert instructors and FBI agents foiled their plot. > If that was true the two big skyscrapers would still be standing in NYC.

They weren’t destroyed because of us, we saved the White House, you destroyed the WTC buildings and damaged the pentagon.  When are you going to realize that our success and your failure is due entirely to your lack of education, intelligence, and learning from experience. — Glenn

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>>> You may not know, but we in this part of the country know.  We know >> that many Arabs visited us before the war and not one raised a hand in >> anger. > 9   1   1 >What has 911 got to do with the invasion of Iraq?  What hand was raised >against "this part of the country?"  Ever?  The 911 attack was against >symbols, symbols of global domination.  

And unfortunately, those symbols of global domination under Bush have become far more pronounced leading to a large increase in terrorists. As for the illegal invasion of Iraq so much of American hope and prosperity has been lost because of it.  And 130,000 young troops are faced with living in a shooting gallery of Bush’s creation where they are killed, wounded and mentally shattered on a daily basis. Is Bush supporting the troops?   How could he be when he got them into the mess in the first place – an illegal war that should never have happened. "The Bush administration is damned by its gross incompetence. Bush has squandered the lives and health of thousands of people. He has run through hundreds of billions of borrowed dollars. He has lost America

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RIP, Mr. Doohan… -DC ‘Star Trek’ Star James Doohan Dies Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:54 AM EDT The Associated Press By BOB THOMAS LOS ANGELES (AP)

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Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… Record breaking weather in Seattle these last days.  89 yesterday (78 during 11:00 news last night).  Projected to hit 90 today, and possibly 100 in outlying areas in Western Washington (all time high for Seattle is 100). Now, if I only didn’t have this damned summer cold and two new client meetings this afternoon… But, the good news is that I’m firing up the Datsun Roadster http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~SROC/imageROB/20BR.jpg for a drive up to the Canadian border tomorrow. To make this message somewhat amp related, I expect that the house will be hot enough that I won’t want to fire up any tube amps this weekend! Off topic, but at least NOT politics or religion. What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is > that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not humid > with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Record breaking weather in Seattle these last days.  89 yesterday (78 > during 11:00 news last night).  Projected to hit 90 today, and possibly > 100 in outlying areas in Western Washington (all time high for Seattle is > 100). > Now, if I only didn’t have this damned summer cold and two new client > meetings this afternoon… > But, the good news is that I’m firing up the Datsun Roadster > http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~SROC/imageROB/20BR.jpg for a drive up to the > Canadian border tomorrow. > To make this message somewhat amp related, I expect that the house will be > hot enough that I won’t want to fire up any tube amps this weekend! > Off topic, but at least NOT politics or religion. > What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the 1654 > (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

Thanks for the reminder! I think I’ll step outside and get some lunch, and admire Mt. Rainier on my way.

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> What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the > 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

I didn’t intend to devalue the other fallen soldiers… Remember ALL soldiers that gave their lives for the U.S., REGARDLESS of your opinion on policy issues and whether the conflict was just.  The soldiers don’t get to set policy, they deserve our respect.

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>> What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the > 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq. > I didn’t intend to devalue the other fallen soldiers… > Remember ALL soldiers that gave their lives for the U.S.,

WHAT makes people believe this? I guess it’s the "faith" crowd…fact? these kids buy into slick recruiting pitches that offer the unskilled, skills, the uneducated, a possible education, the unemployed, a paycheck, the emotionally needy a "brotherhood". Nowhere does the pitch offer the living a bodybag or a lifetime in and out of VA hospitals. They’re young, think they’re invulnerable and gamble via denial… >REGARDLESS of your opinion on policy issues and whether the conflict was just.

WAR and "Just"…another concept for terminally childish faith-based chickenhawks in denial. > The  soldiers don’t get to set policy,

They don’t even get to set their alarm or their lights out. That’s the tip of the iceberg. They’re armed fuckmeat sent to hell and if alive upon return, severely damaged upstairs–for life. they deserve our respect. Sounds like another guilt-ridden Vietnam civilian, decades later, over compensating.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is > that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not > humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Record breaking weather in Seattle these last days.  89 yesterday (78 > during 11:00 news last night).  Projected to hit 90 today, and possibly > 100 in outlying areas in Western Washington (all time high for Seattle > is 100). > Now, if I only didn’t have this damned summer cold and two new client > meetings this afternoon… > But, the good news is that I’m firing up the Datsun Roadster > http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~SROC/imageROB/20BR.jpg for a drive up to the > Canadian border tomorrow.

My room-mate in college (high-school chum) had one of those.  I got to drive it a LOT…  nice car actually.  It was everything an MGB *wished* it was, without the constant tune-ups and shit.  One thing for sure, the suspension is so TIGHT that one can suffer spinal compression on some roads.    It’ll certainly knock the tubes out of your amp if it’s in the back..! ! !  ;-) > To make this message somewhat amp related, I expect that the house will > be hot enough that I won’t want to fire up any tube amps this weekend!

Wimp..! ! > Off topic, but at least NOT politics or religion. > What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the > 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

They will not be forgotten. But, more *Heck*, on June 6th, don’t forget the approx 1400 Americans killed and 1900+ *missing* on D-day ALONE on the Normandy beaches in 1944. One day of fighting… In the next few weeks/MONTH(s) after D-Day the battle for Normandy (*part* of France) resulted in 37,000 dead Allied "ground troops" and another 16,700 air force deaths. That’s 53,000 dead Allied troops in the Battle of Normandy.  The Battle of the Bulge came later, of course… It is prudent to reflect on casualty figures of previous conflicts to keep current casualty *rates* in perspective.  Casualties are NEVER agreeable… but risk is inherent in human conflict, which is the nature of our existance. I’m sure that militaries, and military colleges around the world are studying how the US is keeping the casualties so low.  Nobody seems interested in critiquing how the initial pre-war "casualty estimates* were so far off/high. On another *note*, May 1-4th was the anniversary of the Battle of Chanclorsville… in Virginia.  The Union army and the Confederate army both had over 10,000 casualties…  one battle. And finally, while everyone celebrates July 4th as Independence Day, few ever stop to remember Gettysburg, July 1st,2nd, 3rd, 1863. On July 4th, 1863, those at Gettysburg had little to celebrate, even the *winners*.  Confederate causalities in dead, wounded and missing were 28,000 out of 75,000. Union casualties were 23,000 out of 88,000. Remember that *casualties* do not mean *killed*, it means "killed, wounded, or MIA."  But not many MIA were "found"… and not many wounded survived.  That is 51,000 total casualties… ALL of them *Americans*… Is "ironic" the correct word to describe how it *seems* there is a better chance that ‘less casualties’ would mean a better chance that each casualty would be "remembered"…??  The casualties at Gettysburg ensured that the USA would remain one nation (pretty significant in my book), and led to our becoming the great nation we are.  How is it that these men don’t have a *memorial* in Washington..???   Is it because we were fighting *ourselves*…??  Where is the *wall* with the names of the Gettysburg dead on it…???  It’s worth discussion as to why we memorialize 50,000+ VietNam War dead soldiers and not the Union Soldiers who *won* the war and "saved" the union at Gettysburg. I once read an interesting anecdote about Gettysburg.  Years and years after the battle, veterans of both sides re-united, as friends, at "the wall" on Cemetary Ridge, and drank a few beers together.  A Confederate vet said to the Yank "If on that day, we’d known there was cold beer on the other side of this wall, we’d have kept fighting and made it over.! " And IIRC, the Yank replied, "No you would not. We’d have defended it to the last..! ! " To anyone who finds themselves in the area, I highly recommend a visit to Gettysburg… it is quite beautiful country, and one can stand on Cemetary Ridge, at the wall, look across the feilds across which Pickett and his men charged, and pay homage to those lost souls to whom we ALL owe so much. gtski

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>Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is >that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not >humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early…

Back in ‘93-’95 I had a project that took me out to Olympia/Seattle several times.  The weather was beautiful almost everytime I went.  I saw very little rain.  I mentioned that to several people who all said "oh we just say that the weather here is crappy to scare people off so we can have the place to ourselves."  I *think* they were kidding but I’m not sure.  :) BTW – did you ever get your computer to record? -Scott McKnight

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is > that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not > humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Record breaking weather in Seattle these last days.  89 yesterday (78 > during 11:00 news last night).  Projected to hit 90 today, and possibly > 100 in outlying areas in Western Washington (all time high for Seattle > is 100). > Now, if I only didn’t have this damned summer cold and two new client > meetings this afternoon… > But, the good news is that I’m firing up the Datsun Roadster > http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~SROC/imageROB/20BR.jpg for a drive up to the > Canadian border tomorrow. > To make this message somewhat amp related, I expect that the house will > be hot enough that I won’t want to fire up any tube amps this weekend! > Off topic, but at least NOT politics or religion. > What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the > 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

Ah, yes…after finishing college, I retired to the Olympic Penninsula for almost a year (1974-75).  The sunny and very pleasant summer was followed by daily rain until the end of May, at which time I drove back east.  I spent most of that year living in a cottage right on the Puget Sound, looking over the water and Mt. Rainier.  The cottage was in Longbranch, the southern-most point on the Key Pennisula.  From Tacoma, turn left at Purdy and keep going until you can’t.  More often than not, I managed to open my eyes for a few minutes each morning shortly after dawn, just in time to see the clouds roll in and obscure the mountain.  Then I’d go back to sleep.  It’s beautiful out there.  Sometime while I’m still fit to walk through the rural terrain, I’d like to visit again.  I’ll bet Gig Harbor is all built up and yuppified for quite a few years by now.  Thanks for waking up the memories. Phil

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is >that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not >humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Back in ‘93-’95 I had a project that took me out to Olympia/Seattle > several times.  The weather was beautiful almost everytime I went.  I > saw very little rain.  I mentioned that to several people who all said > "oh we just say that the weather here is crappy to scare people off so > we can have the place to ourselves."  I *think* they were kidding but > I’m not sure.  :) > BTW – did you ever get your computer to record? > -Scott McKnight

I’ve been so busy I haven’t played much, let alone moved in the direction of recording…

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is >>that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not humid >>with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Back in ‘93-’95 I had a project that took me out to Olympia/Seattle > several times.  The weather was beautiful almost everytime I went.  I > saw very little rain.  I mentioned that to several people who all said > "oh we just say that the weather here is crappy to scare people off so > we can have the place to ourselves."  I *think* they were kidding but > I’m not sure.  :) > BTW – did you ever get your computer to record? > -Scott McKnight > I’ve been so busy I haven’t played much, let alone moved in the direction > of recording…

I went to Seattle once, it sucked. It’s full of Commies, California fudge packers, leftist pansy-asses, anti-war protesting losers, rug munchers and other assorted deviant slime. The fact that they have that Saddam-loving commie stooge McDermott as their congressman says it all. The place sucks, their football team sucks, their mayor sucks, everything about the place, including Mt Hood sucks. Here’s hoping Mt. Hood blows it’s top tomorrow and buries that assholes once and for all. The Socialist election-stealing perverts deserve what they get. Let the limp-wristed assholes have that cesspool of weirdoes & perverts all to themselves. STAY THERE, you cocksuckers!

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> I went to Seattle once…

[nonsense deleted] Mt. Hood isn’t even in Washington State. So much for your nonsense.

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> I went to Seattle once… > [nonsense deleted] > Mt. Hood isn’t even in Washington State. > So much for your nonsense.

Yeah, yeah, it was Mt. Rainier. (Figures you commie-loving traitiors’d name a mountain after some French pussy.)

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> I’ll bet Gig Harbor is all built up and yuppified for > quite a few years by now.

Understatement of the week  Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here]  

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> >> I went to Seattle once… > [nonsense deleted] > Mt. Hood isn’t even in Washington State. > So much for your nonsense. > Yeah, yeah, it was Mt. Rainier. (Figures you commie-loving traitiors’d name > a mountain after some French pussy.)

  Don’t condemn everyone in the state as "commie-loving traitiors", Jack. Not everyone here is a liberal; me least of all! Monte

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>I went to Seattle once… >>[nonsense deleted] >>Mt. Hood isn’t even in Washington State. >>So much for your nonsense. >Yeah, yeah, it was Mt. Rainier. (Figures you commie-loving traitiors’d name >a mountain after some French pussy.) >   Don’t condemn everyone in the state as "commie-loving traitiors", Jack. Not > everyone here is a liberal; me least of all! > Monte

And a lot of people don’t neatly fall into one of two categories.

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> I’ll bet Gig Harbor is all built up and yuppified for > quite a few years by now. > Understatement of the week >  Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here]

Mike, Considering the last time I passed thru, it was 1975, I imagine I might not even recognize Long Branch or Key Center.  I can’t tell you how many beers I swilled down in the Key Center Tavern (a bona fide dive) or in the considerably more upscale establishment (can’t remember the name) in Gig Harbor where they served alfalfa sprouts on the whole wheat pizza.  I was just a lad of 22 back then and was willing to spend the last dollar in my wallet on beer or — you know — whatever — and frequently did.  It was a great experience to be free.  For almost 9 months, I never once worried about where my next meal was comming from or how my wallet would get filled up again.  I got to sit around the house with my friends and play guitar, chop wood (necessary for heat), and enjoy the scenery.  I also found the comfort of a very horny woman, same age as me, for several months.  It was the time of a lifetime.  For once, youth wasn’t wasted on the young.  I glad to be able to say that I was retired after I left college.  If I should die before I get another chance, it will be OK.  Besides, retirement for old folks couldn’t possibly match that experience!  I’d love to visit again.  I think someone from the east can never get over the size and scale of the fir trees. Regards, Phil

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> I can’t tell you how many beers I > swilled down in the Key Center Tavern (a bona fide dive) or in the > considerably more upscale establishment (can’t remember the name) in Gig > Harbor where they served alfalfa sprouts on the whole wheat pizza.

Was that the "Tides Tavern"?  It’s reportedly still there.  Had a "gig" [sorry] there once about 25 years ago.  One of (if not THE) noisiest venues for acoustic music I’ve ever played. Haven’t really spent too much time in the south sound (at least the Kitsap side), but I did go to a wedding near Belfair last Summer.   Belfair, at least, is still nicely rural. There are a lot of places around here you’d never recognize anymore.   Woodenville, Redmond, Marysville, even Burlington have all become huge bedroom communities.  It now takes nearly an hour to drive through Everett on I-5 on a weekday afternoon.  Ah, progress. –Mike  Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here]  

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I can’t tell you how many beers I > swilled down in the Key Center Tavern (a bona fide dive) or in the > considerably more upscale establishment (can’t remember the name) in Gig > Harbor where they served alfalfa sprouts on the whole wheat pizza. > Was that the "Tides Tavern"?  It’s reportedly still there.  Had a "gig" > [sorry] there once about 25 years ago.  One of (if not THE) noisiest > venues for acoustic music I’ve ever played. > Haven’t really spent too much time in the south sound (at least the > Kitsap side), but I did go to a wedding near Belfair last Summer. > Belfair, at least, is still nicely rural. > There are a lot of places around here you’d never recognize anymore. > Woodenville, Redmond, Marysville, even Burlington have all become huge > bedroom communities.  It now takes nearly an hour to drive through > Everett on I-5 on a weekday afternoon.  Ah, progress. > –Mike >  Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here]

I did a search for Gig Harbor restaurants, and the Tides is still there. The menu looks unfamiliar, though that probably doesn’t count for much after 30 yrs.  It says, founded 1973, which should be about right, as I remember it looked very new inside.  It was a decent local music venue, though I can’t say how is was from the performer’s side. I recall, however, taking the Bremerton – Seattle ferry to visit the Paramount, where we took in lots of good shows: Bonnie Raitt & John Prine, Jackson Brown (maybe also w/ Raitt), Heart (the Wilson sisters could really kick butt),  Jerry Garcia Band (he sang Smokey R’s "If you feel like lovin’ me…" and we laughed about that all the way home), Return to Forever (can still remember how blown away we were — what Al DiMeola must have been all of 19 or 20), maybe a few other shows.  Tix were cheap in those days.  We bought fried smelts at Pike’s Market for the ferry ride home.  Those were the days. I’m quite certain that the place I’m thinking about in GH did a big business in whole wheat pizza with sprouts and other s**t we thought was good for us even though it tasted like something we’d feed to a cow or a goat.  Plenty of Olympia (good beer, or worse, Ranier) to wash it down with, and what we smoked before going in, so it didn’t really matter.  You’ll laugh when I say, "It was a big place with lots of wood." as if that doesn’t describe every building in that neck of the woods!  Being an Easterner, more specifically from NY, I tend to expect some brick or stone in whatever is built. The whole time I was there, I kept thinking how I should buy land.  Tacoma was in a depression and the unemployment rate was double digit.  Land must have been cheap.  Of course, I didn’t have two nickels to rub together, so it was just a pipe dream.  I painted the exterior of a house when the weather lifted in the spring and figured I’d better use that money to drive back east or I’d be stranded.  That’s when I woke up.  Ugh. Thanks for stirring up the memories! Phil

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I can’t tell you how many beers I >>swilled down in the Key Center Tavern (a bona fide dive) or in the >>considerably more upscale establishment (can’t remember the name) in Gig >>Harbor where they served alfalfa sprouts on the whole wheat pizza. >Was that the "Tides Tavern"?  It’s reportedly still there.  Had a "gig" >[sorry] there once about 25 years ago.  One of (if not THE) noisiest >venues for acoustic music I’ve ever played. >Haven’t really spent too much time in the south sound (at least the >Kitsap side), but I did go to a wedding near Belfair last Summer. >Belfair, at least, is still nicely rural. >There are a lot of places around here you’d never recognize anymore. >Woodenville, Redmond, Marysville, even Burlington have all become huge >bedroom communities.  It now takes nearly an hour to drive through >Everett on I-5 on a weekday afternoon.  Ah, progress. >–Mike > Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here] > I did a search for Gig Harbor restaurants, and the Tides is still there. > The menu looks unfamiliar, though that probably doesn’t count for much after > 30 yrs.  It says, founded 1973, which should be about right, as I remember > it looked very new inside.  It was a decent local music venue, though I > can’t say how is was from the performer’s side. > I recall, however, taking the Bremerton – Seattle ferry to visit the > Paramount, where we took in lots of good shows: Bonnie Raitt & John Prine, > Jackson Brown (maybe also w/ Raitt), Heart (the Wilson sisters could really > kick butt),  Jerry Garcia Band (he sang Smokey R’s "If you feel like lovin’ > me…" and we laughed about that all the way home), Return to Forever (can > still remember how blown away we were — what Al DiMeola must have been all > of 19 or 20), maybe a few other shows.  Tix were cheap in those days.  We > bought fried smelts at Pike’s Market for the ferry ride home.  Those were > the days.

Those WERE the days..! ! ! !   I was there a number of times in ‘73…’74…’75… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m quite certain that the place I’m thinking about in GH did a big business > in whole wheat pizza with sprouts and other s**t we thought was good for us > even though it tasted like something we’d feed to a cow or a goat.  Plenty > of Olympia (good beer, or worse, Ranier) to wash it down with, and what we > smoked before going in, so it didn’t really matter.  You’ll laugh when I > say, "It was a big place with lots of wood." as if that doesn’t describe > every building in that neck of the woods!  Being an Easterner, more > specifically from NY, I tend to expect some brick or stone in whatever is > built. > The whole time I was there, I kept thinking how I should buy land.  Tacoma > was in a depression and the unemployment rate was double digit.  Land must > have been cheap.  Of course, I didn’t have two nickels to rub together, so > it was just a pipe dream.  I painted the exterior of a house when the > weather lifted in the spring and figured I’d better use that money to drive > back east or I’d be stranded.  That’s when I woke up.  Ugh. > Thanks for stirring up the memories! > Phil

Thats FUNNY..! ! !   I thought much of the same… although I HAD two nickels to rub together, I didn’t follow through….  who really knew..??? gtski

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Question:

Am I the only one who’s feeling just a leeeetle schadenfreude at the plight of the French? I mean, they pass a law against the wearing of religious symbols at public schools — eg., yarmulkes, crucifixes and Muslim headdresses, which supposedly make all equal under the law. Whereupon the religious fanatics of Islam kidnap a couple of French journos and threaten to kill them unless the law is repealed. Now, this amuses me on so many levels, it’s hard to know where to begin. Let me try. 1. The Frogs are indignant: after all, they’re saying in private, we’re like you: we’re also against the Americans — so why kidnap us? 2. The law under discussion is supposed to be even-handed — it fucks Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. Only, as the Frogs are learning, the Islamists are only interested in sticking it to non-Muslims. If they get nailed, even as part of a whole, they’re not above a little of what used to be called "massive retaliation". 3. This is a law about religious symbols. French Jews and Christians, it seems, aren’t as upset about this as one might expect them to be. Excuse me for not feeling sympathetic towards them, either, if they’re going to lie down and take this one. 4. They’re probably not the same ones, but wouldn’t it be just excellent if these two journalists were involved in the filming of the rocket attack against the American cargo plane in Baghdad a few months back? As it is, because they’re members of the same French press, fuck ‘em. Maybe now the French will see what everyone is up against — and by "everyone", I mean specifically the non-Muslim world. Note to the French: There are no "neutrals", and there is no "nuance", in this conflict. These Islamist fucks want us to be either dead, or Muslim. Either you submit, or fight. This is no time for Vichy-style collaboration — you’ll only be offering your throats for the eventual knife. From http://www.kimdutoit.com/dr/weblog.php?id=P4056 — Greg

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>Am I the only one who’s feeling just a leeeetle schadenfreude at the >plight of the French? >I mean, they pass a law against the wearing of religious symbols at public >schools — eg., yarmulkes, crucifixes and Muslim headdresses, which >supposedly make all equal under the law. >Whereupon the religious fanatics of Islam kidnap a couple of French >journos and threaten to kill them unless the law is repealed.

Really, now … who *didn’t* see this coming?  I thought that was the stupidest move ever, considering the climate from Islamic extremists.  They are just *looking* for any excuse to terrorize someone, and this was just another excuse.  The only excuse I can think of, is that the lack of AC’s in France is causing their brains to overheat and run at a lower performance levels. Lostpup198 "People everywhere confuse what they read in newspapers with news." — A. J. Liebling [Abbott Joseph Liebling] (1904-1963) Journalist, author Source: The New Yorker, 7 April 1956

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Am I the only one who’s feeling just a leeeetle schadenfreude at the >plight of the French? >I mean, they pass a law against the wearing of religious symbols at public >schools — eg., yarmulkes, crucifixes and Muslim headdresses, which >supposedly make all equal under the law. >Whereupon the religious fanatics of Islam kidnap a couple of French >journos and threaten to kill them unless the law is repealed. >Really, now … who *didn’t* see this coming?  I thought that was the stupidest >move ever, considering the climate from Islamic extremists.  They are just >*looking* for any excuse to terrorize someone, and this was just another >excuse.  The only excuse I can think of, is that the lack of AC’s in France is >causing their brains to overheat and run at a lower performance levels.

Second stupidest move lately. After all, what will the French actually do? Pissing off the Russians, now…. Claude

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I rest my KKKase. Hiel! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Am I the only one who’s feeling just a leeeetle schadenfreude at the > plight of the French?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Am I the only one who’s feeling just a leeeetle schadenfreude at the > plight of the French? > I mean, they pass a law against the wearing of religious symbols at public > schools — eg., yarmulkes, crucifixes and Muslim headdresses, which > supposedly make all equal under the law. > Whereupon the religious fanatics of Islam kidnap a couple of French > journos and threaten to kill them unless the law is repealed. > Now, this amuses me on so many levels, it’s hard to know where to begin. > Let me try. > 1. The Frogs are indignant: after all, they’re saying in private, we’re > like you: we’re also against the Americans — so why kidnap us?

If it’s in private, how do you know they’re saying it?  Knee-jerk conjecture? > 2. The law under discussion is supposed to be even-handed — it fucks > Jews, Christians and Muslims alike. Only, as the Frogs are learning, the > Islamists are only interested in sticking it to non-Muslims. If they get > nailed, even as part of a whole, they’re not above a little of what used > to be called "massive retaliation".

I do not support Islamist doctrine, but I have to point out that being an Islamist does not make someone a terrorist, or even make them want to "stick it" to every non-Muslim – any more (or less) than being a fundamentalist Christian does the same. > 3. This is a law about religious symbols. French Jews and Christians, it > seems, aren’t as upset about this as one might expect them to be. Excuse > me for not feeling sympathetic towards them, either, if they’re going to > lie down and take this one.

For the record, I think this is a stupid law.  But the context is important. The French have a very strong tradition of keeping government, and government officials non-secular.  This law is supposed to strengthen that tradition. > 4. They’re probably not the same ones, but wouldn’t it be just excellent > if these two journalists were involved in the filming of the rocket attack > against the American cargo plane in Baghdad a few months back? As it is, > because they’re members of the same French press, fuck ‘em. Maybe now the > French will see what everyone is up against — and by "everyone", I mean > specifically the non-Muslim world. > Note to the French: There are no "neutrals", and there is no "nuance", in > this conflict. These Islamist fucks want us to be either dead, or Muslim. > Either you submit, or fight. This is no time for Vichy-style collaboration > — you’ll only be offering your throats for the eventual knife.

Now your reasoning comes into the open.  If two French journalists did something wrong, then ALL French journalists deserve to die.  If a group of Muslims are terrorists, then ALL Muslims are terrorists.  If we continue to categorize the whole world into "just like me" and "enemy", then we will constantly be at war.  Is that what you’d prefer?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Am I the only one who’s feeling just a leeeetle schadenfreude at the >plight of the French? >I mean, they pass a law against the wearing of religious symbols at public >schools — eg., yarmulkes, crucifixes and Muslim headdresses, which >supposedly make all equal under the law. >Whereupon the religious fanatics of Islam kidnap a couple of French >journos and threaten to kill them unless the law is repealed. >Really, now … who *didn’t* see this coming?  I thought that was the stupidest >move ever, considering the climate from Islamic extremists.  They are just >*looking* for any excuse to terrorize someone, and this was just another >excuse.  The only excuse I can think of, is that the lack of AC’s in France is >causing their brains to overheat and run at a lower performance levels.

In all likelihood, they grabbed a soft target and then had to dream up a justification when they realized what they had.

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(snip) > Pissing off the Russians, now….

Yes. Not a good move. <G> Ed Cregger

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> Second stupidest move lately. After all, what will the French actually do?

Tell that to Greenpeace, got one of their boats blown up with loss of life while protesting French nuclear testing, and lots of other folks around the world can tell you what it is like to have the the FFL come calling.  The French might not be too successful going up against Germany, but that doesn’t mean they’ve ever been bashful about using high explosives to make their point.

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>> Second stupidest move lately. After all, what will the French actually do? >Tell that to Greenpeace, got one of their boats blown up with loss of life >while protesting French nuclear testing, and lots of other folks around the >world can tell you what it is like to have the the FFL come calling.  The >French might not be too successful going up against Germany, but that >doesn’t mean they’ve ever been bashful about using high explosives to make >their point.

So what does that mean?  Are you saying they will just blow ‘em up … hostages and all?  The French government might come off a little better if they just let the terrorists kill the hostages before they do that. Lostpup198 "I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There’s a knob called "brightness", but it doesn’t work." — Gallagher Comedian

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Second stupidest move lately. After all, what will the French actually do? >Tell that to Greenpeace, got one of their boats blown up with loss of life >while protesting French nuclear testing, and lots of other folks around the >world can tell you what it is like to have the the FFL come calling.  The >French might not be too successful going up against Germany, but that >doesn’t mean they’ve ever been bashful about using high explosives to make >their point. >So what does that mean?  Are you saying they will just blow ‘em up … hostages >and all?  The French government might come off a little better if they just let >the terrorists kill the hostages before they do that.

I think that he must mean that the French can muster enough bravery to deal with a mob of hippies in an antique boat when they choose to. So far, though, they haven’t caved over the headscarfs yet. Maybe there is still a bit of testicular fortitude buried in France somewhere. Claude

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> Maybe there is still a bit of  testicular fortitude buried in France

somewhere. …in Normandy under rows of white crosses.

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>> Maybe there is still a bit of  testicular fortitude buried in France >somewhere. >…in Normandy under rows of white crosses.

Well, besides ours… :^) Last I heard they still haven’t caved on the scarfs. There may yet be hope. Claude

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>> Maybe there is still a bit of  testicular fortitude buried in France >somewhere. >…in Normandy under rows of white crosses.

Zinger!! Been a great week for them. Thanks.

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> I think that he must mean that the French can muster enough > bravery to deal with a mob of hippies in an antique boat > when they choose to. So far, though, they haven’t caved > over the headscarfs yet. Maybe there is still a bit of > testicular fortitude buried in France somewhere. > Claude

Do a little research, France has traditionally been unafraid of using armed force to settle its differences.  You might recall that the U.S. took over from France in Vietnam, Algeria would be another recent example of France’s willingness to shed blood, not to mention Suez, Chad….  The fact that France was wicked enough to invest billions in Iraq’s oilfields does not indicate that the French have some native fear of violence, they were in the first gulf war you might remember.  And considering what a clusterfuck Iraq has been, I’m not so sure they didn’t make the right call in this case. Nearly a thousand American lives and trillions of American dollars so far, for what?  Where did those WMD go, did Saddam FedEx them to Norht Korea? The French might be arrogant assholes, but even a casual examination of their history shows they aren’t afraid of a scrap when they think it’s in their best interests.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Second stupidest move lately. After all, what will the French actually >do? >>Tell that to Greenpeace, got one of their boats blown up with loss of life >>while protesting French nuclear testing, and lots of other folks around the >>world can tell you what it is like to have the the FFL come calling.  The >>French might not be too successful going up against Germany, but that >>doesn’t mean they’ve ever been bashful about using high explosives to make >>their point. >So what does that mean?  Are you saying they will just blow ‘em up … >hostages >and all?  The French government might come off a little better if they just >let >the terrorists kill the hostages before they do that. >I think that he must mean that the French can muster enough >bravery to deal with a mob of hippies in an antique boat >when they choose to. So far, though, they haven’t caved >over the headscarfs yet. Maybe there is still a bit of >testicular fortitude buried in France somewhere. >Claude

Yeah, at Normandy and Brittany and places like that … Lostpup198 "I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There’s a knob called "brightness", but it doesn’t work." — Gallagher Comedian

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>> Second stupidest move lately. After all, what will the French actually >do? >>>Tell that to Greenpeace, got one of their boats blown up with loss of life >>>while protesting French nuclear testing, and lots of other folks around the >>>world can tell you what it is like to have the the FFL come calling.  The >>>French might not be too successful going up against Germany, but that >>>doesn’t mean they’ve ever been bashful about using high explosives to make >>>their point. >>So what does that mean?  Are you saying they will just blow ‘em up … >hostages >>and all?  The French government might come off a little better if they just >let >>the terrorists kill the hostages before they do that. >I think that he must mean that the French can muster enough >bravery to deal with a mob of hippies in an antique boat >when they choose to. So far, though, they haven’t caved >over the headscarfs yet. Maybe there is still a bit of >testicular fortitude buried in France somewhere. >Claude >Yeah, at Normandy and Brittany and places like that …

Yup. I’m certain, as Mr Devin stated in the thread that the French _could_ summon up some bravery if they chose to. The fact that they chose to oppose us in the recent Iraqi liberation is not, in spite of the jokes, a matter of fear or cowardice, but a matter of freely choosing sides in the dispute for well documented commercial reasons. Frankly, I find that concept far more distasteful than if they were merely cowering in fear…. Claude

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Question:

  I WOULD DO A TRANSATLANTIC TRIP AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT….PLENTY TO DO, AND JUST VISIT WITH A LOT OF NICE PEOPLE, RELAX AND LEAN BACK, TAKE A GOOD BOOK OR A FEW TAPES YOU LIKE…(TRY THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR BOOKS ON TAPE) UNLESS YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS IN THE WORLD, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU HAVE MANY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SURE MEET MORE ON THE CRUISE ACROSS)   > Having sailed on six transatlantic cruises, I can tell you that those   > sea days can be a complete joy.   >   > Although, I have never done a transatlantic on Princess, I can tell you   > that other cruiselines often have some very interesting daytime   > entertainment during crossings.  Some of the more enjoyable acts that I   > have seen have included:  opera and jazz singers, classical pianists and   > guitarists, professional pickpockets, and a capella groups.   >   > Of course if the weather is great, a given on south Atlantic crossings   > in May but more iffy on your route, laying out on deck with a stiff   > breeze, temps in the 70’s, and full sunshine is as close to perfect as   > it gets for me.   >   > Howie   >   > > We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May   > > 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After   > > that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast,   > > Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from   > > London.   > >   > > I know I can go to the gym & read a lot during the sea days, but what   > > else is there to do? We never go to the casino. Don’t want to eat all   > > day & put those pounds on.   > >   > > We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward   > > to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre.   > >   > > Thanks   > > Florence   > >   > >   > >   > >   >

Response:

Florence, Ten years ago we did our only Trans-Atlantic cruise on Crystal Harmony on a cruise which turned out to be a celebration of the 50th anniversary of D-Day. I honestly do not remember if the weather allowed us to much deck time, but because there are no ports on all of those sea days, the ship schedules many varying activities to insure that you will not be bored. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May > 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After > that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast, > Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from > London. > I know I can go to the gym & read a lot during the sea days, but what > else is there to do? We never go to the casino. Don’t want to eat all > day & put those pounds on. > We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward > to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre. > Thanks > Florence

Response:

>Will I be bored on a Transatlantic Cruise?

There will be 6 sea days before we arrive >in Dublin Ireland. Not at all!  I recently took a 15 night round trip Hawaii and we had four sea days going and five coming home.  Enjoyed every second of it.  Plenty to do and if you choose you can just *relax*. ~ Patty

Response:

>"COLORADOJACK" Screamed: >I WOULD DO A TRANSATLANTIC TRIP AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT….PLENTY TO DO, AND >JUST VISIT WITH A LOT OF NICE PEOPLE, RELAX AND LEAN BACK, TAKE A GOOD BOOK >OR A FEW TAPES YOU LIKE…(TRY THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR BOOKS ON TAPE) UNLESS >YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS IN THE WORLD, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU HAVE >MANY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SURE MEET MORE ON THE CRUISE ACROSS)

What?? WHAT?? What was that you said???? I can’t hear you! -Heather Remove CanOspam to email http://members.aol.com/nookeybear/index1.htm

Response:

>Plenty to do and >if you choose you can just *relax*.

Exactly. I would find alot less to do on a several hour flight than I would on a several week cruise. -Heather Remove CanOspam to email http://members.aol.com/nookeybear/index1.htm

Response:

>Florence, >Ten years ago we did our only Trans-Atlantic cruise on Crystal Harmony on a >cruise which turned out to be a celebration of the 50th anniversary of >D-Day. >I honestly do not remember if the weather allowed us to much deck time, but >because there are no ports on all of those sea days, the ship schedules many >varying activities to insure that you will not be bored.

My only other ‘cruise’ was in 1950 on the Niew Amsterdam from NYC to LaHavre.  I was 12.  We had bingo, and horse races, and played canasta (remember canasta), and I hung out with the other children on the ship (no children’s programs then), and played ping pong and I think I swam in the pool.  I think there were movies.   I also figured out ways to get up into first class (we were tourist).  I don’t remember being bored, but it was a simpler time. grandma Rosalie

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Howie Did you say professional pickpockets? Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying attention. Florence

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Thanks to all who responded. I hope Princess does have daytime entertainment. I’ll have to check the Princess board on Cruise Critic – someone there should know. Really don’t need to rest or relax. We’re retired & get enough rest at home. Florence

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> Howie > Did you say professional pickpockets? > Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying > attention. > Florence

No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them (including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary slight of hand skills. Howie

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Howie > Did you say professional pickpockets? > Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying > attention. > Florence > No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I > saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought > audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them > (including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to > know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting > character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary > slight of hand skills. > Howie

I can vouch for this one.  I was there.  After the professional piokpocket came down the aisle to the stage in the showroom, he produced a lot of stuff that he gleaned while just walking past the audience.  He produced watches, belts, wallets, etc. and had folks from the audience coming up on stage to claim them.  Darndest show we ever saw.   At the same time, he gave away some things to watch for in strange cities, so as not to become a victim of pickpockets. Ermalee <—had a blast with Howard and Eileen on that crossing

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Howie >>Did you say professional pickpockets? >>Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying >>attention. >>Florence >No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I >saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought >audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them >(including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to >know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting >character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary >slight of hand skills. >Howie > I can vouch for this one.  I was there.  After the professional > piokpocket came down the aisle to the stage in the showroom, he > produced a lot of stuff that he gleaned while just walking past > the audience.  He produced watches, belts, wallets, etc. and had > folks from the audience coming up on stage to claim them.  Darndest > show we ever saw.   > At the same time, he gave away some things to watch for in strange > cities, so as not to become a victim of pickpockets. > Ermalee <—had a blast with Howard and Eileen on that crossing

Thanks, Erm.  I forgot to mention that transatlantics offer a great opportunity for making good friends.  Our first cruise with Erm and Bill was on the Splendour crossing in April 1997.  After seven years, they remain our good friends and cruising buddies. Howie

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Howie > Did you say professional pickpockets? > Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying > attention. > Florence > No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I > saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought > audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them > (including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to > know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting > character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary > slight of hand skills.

But you "stole" Eileen’s heart. –Tom

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Howie >>Did you say professional pickpockets? >>Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying >>attention. >>Florence >No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I >saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought >audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them >(including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to >know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting >character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary >slight of hand skills. > But you "stole" Eileen’s heart. > –Tom

Many years earlier, buddy. Howie

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Patty, While we love the Hawaii round trip enough to have done it three times, there is a difference between a May cruise through the North Atlantic and a Hawaii trip. In 1994 we did New York to London via Honfleurs and I do not recall having the option of baking by the pool which is one of the reasons why we have done Hawaii three times. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Will I be bored on a Transatlantic Cruise? > There will be 6 sea days before we arrive >in Dublin Ireland. > Not at all!  I recently took a 15 night round trip Hawaii and we had four sea > days going and five coming home.  Enjoyed every second of it.  Plenty to do and > if you choose you can just *relax*. > ~ Patty

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  Again I forgot, my vision is awful, I can’t drive a car, I have a hole in back of both my eyes that are to large to repair… I shall try and remember to watch myself as to posting…And they told me these are to be the golden years at 75?   I don’t have the strength to scream much more, unless its at my Grandchildren stepping on the flowers….   Thank you for reminding me to not shout…..who made this rule…I have spent 45 minutes on this message…..Maybe your turn will come   > >"COLORADOJACK" Screamed:   >   > >I WOULD DO A TRANSATLANTIC TRIP AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT….PLENTY TO DO, AND   > >JUST VISIT WITH A LOT OF NICE PEOPLE, RELAX AND LEAN BACK, TAKE A GOOD BOOK   > >OR A FEW TAPES YOU LIKE…(TRY THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR BOOKS ON TAPE) UNLESS   > >YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS IN THE WORLD, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU HAVE   > >MANY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SURE MEET MORE ON THE CRUISE ACROSS)   >   > What?? WHAT?? What was that you said???? I can’t hear you!   >   > -Heather   > Remove CanOspam to email   > http://members.aol.com/nookeybear/index1.htm

Response:

> …New York to London … I do not recall having > the option of baking by the pool…

Sailing out of NY for Ireland in May may well turn out not to be "baking by the pool" weather… though it certainly may be nice enough to spend much of the day on deck. A little more southerly [e.g. Ft. Lauderdale to Lisbon] route is a safer bet [as far as "baking by the pool" goes] at that time frame. But crossings are, none the less, rarely boring at any time of year, in my experience.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Patty, > While we love the Hawaii round trip enough to have done it three times, > there is a difference between a May cruise through the North Atlantic and a > Hawaii trip. > In 1994 we did New York to London via Honfleurs and I do not recall having > the option of baking by the pool which is one of the reasons why we have > done Hawaii three times. > — > DG in Cherry Hill, NJ > >Will I be bored on a Transatlantic Cruise? > There will be 6 sea days before we arrive >in Dublin Ireland. > Not at all!  I recently took a 15 night round trip Hawaii and we had four > sea > days going and five coming home.  Enjoyed every second of it.  Plenty to > do and > if you choose you can just *relax*. > ~ Patty

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>>…New York to London … I do not recall having >the option of baking by the pool… > Sailing out of NY for Ireland in May may well turn out not to be "baking by > the pool" weather… though it certainly may be nice enough to spend much of > the day on deck. A little more southerly [e.g. Ft. Lauderdale to Lisbon] > route is a safer bet [as far as "baking by the pool" goes] at that time > frame. But crossings are, none the less, rarely boring at any time of year, > in my experience.

IMO, those southerly spring crossings are as good as it gets in cruising; and that’s pretty damn good. Howie

Response:

> IMO, those southerly spring crossings are as good as it gets in

cruising… I definitely agree.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>…New York to London … I do not recall having >>the option of baking by the pool… > Sailing out of NY for Ireland in May may well turn out not to be "baking by > the pool" weather… though it certainly may be nice enough to spend much of > the day on deck. A little more southerly [e.g. Ft. Lauderdale to Lisbon] > route is a safer bet [as far as "baking by the pool" goes] at that time > frame. But crossings are, none the less, rarely boring at any time of year, > in my experience. > IMO, those southerly spring crossings are as good as it gets in > cruising; and that’s pretty damn good. > Howie

Response:

> We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May > 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After > that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast, > Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from > London.

Florence what a wonderful itinerary! I’m jealous!  I doubt very much that you will be bored during those six sea days.. From all the posts that I have read, they seem to have much more entertainment on sea days when taking a transatlantic! Sure is better than those loooong flights! The Golden Princess is a lovely ship..  > We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward > to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre.

This will be a very emotional experience and what a lovely time of the year to do it~Spring!  Go for it! –Jean

Response:

Here is a suggestion, Jack.  Since you are using Outlook Express as your reader, when you go to answer a note click "reply", and then click "Format" on the top toolbar and select "Rich Text (HTML)" Select a font size that is easy for you to read and when you are finished go back to "format" and select "Plain Text" That should make it easier for all of us. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   Again I forgot, my vision is awful, I can’t drive a car, I have a hole in > back of both my eyes that are to large to repair… I shall try and remember > to watch myself as to posting…And they told me these are to be the golden > years at 75? >   I don’t have the strength to scream much more, unless its at my > Grandchildren stepping on the flowers…. >   Thank you for reminding me to not shout…..who made this rule…I have > spent 45 minutes on this message…..Maybe your turn will come >   > >"COLORADOJACK" Screamed: >   > >I WOULD DO A TRANSATLANTIC TRIP AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT….PLENTY TO DO, > AND >   > >JUST VISIT WITH A LOT OF NICE PEOPLE, RELAX AND LEAN BACK, TAKE A GOOD > BOOK >   > >OR A FEW TAPES YOU LIKE…(TRY THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR BOOKS ON TAPE) > UNLESS >   > >YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS IN THE WORLD, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU > HAVE >   > >MANY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SURE MEET MORE ON THE CRUISE ACROSS) >   > What?? WHAT?? What was that you said???? I can’t hear you! >   > -Heather >   > Remove CanOspam to email >   > http://members.aol.com/nookeybear/index1.htm

Response:

Jean One of the reasons why we are considering this cruise is that we hate those flights from NY to Europe. You lose a whole nights sleep & I can’t sleep on a plane. Then when I get there it takes my body another day to get adjusted. This is why the west to east transatlantic appealed to me. Flying home from London won’t bother me. Regards Florence

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Have to correct my last post. The west to east transatlantic cruise is what appealed to us. Never good at directions! Florence

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We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast, Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from London. I know I can go to the gym & read a lot during the sea days, but what else is there to do? We never go to the casino. Don’t want to eat all day & put those pounds on. We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre. Thanks Florence

Response:

Having sailed on six transatlantic cruises, I can tell you that those sea days can be a complete joy. Although, I have never done a transatlantic on Princess, I can tell you that other cruiselines often have some very interesting daytime entertainment during crossings.  Some of the more enjoyable acts that I have seen have included:  opera and jazz singers, classical pianists and guitarists, professional pickpockets, and a capella groups. Of course if the weather is great, a given on south Atlantic crossings in May but more iffy on your route, laying out on deck with a stiff breeze, temps in the 70’s, and full sunshine is as close to perfect as it gets for me. Howie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May > 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After > that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast, > Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from > London. > I know I can go to the gym & read a lot during the sea days, but what > else is there to do? We never go to the casino. Don’t want to eat all > day & put those pounds on. > We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward > to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre. > Thanks > Florence

Response:

We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast, Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from London. I know I can go to the gym & read a lot during the sea days, but what else is there to do? We never go to the casino. Don’t want to eat all day & put those pounds on. We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre. Thanks Florence

Response:

Having sailed on six transatlantic cruises, I can tell you that those sea days can be a complete joy. Although, I have never done a transatlantic on Princess, I can tell you that other cruiselines often have some very interesting daytime entertainment during crossings.  Some of the more enjoyable acts that I have seen have included:  opera and jazz singers, classical pianists and guitarists, professional pickpockets, and a capella groups. Of course if the weather is great, a given on south Atlantic crossings in May but more iffy on your route, laying out on deck with a stiff breeze, temps in the 70’s, and full sunshine is as close to perfect as it gets for me. Howie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May > 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After > that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast, > Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from > London. > I know I can go to the gym & read a lot during the sea days, but what > else is there to do? We never go to the casino. Don’t want to eat all > day & put those pounds on. > We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward > to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre. > Thanks > Florence

Response:

  I WOULD DO A TRANSATLANTIC TRIP AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT….PLENTY TO DO, AND JUST VISIT WITH A LOT OF NICE PEOPLE, RELAX AND LEAN BACK, TAKE A GOOD BOOK OR A FEW TAPES YOU LIKE…(TRY THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR BOOKS ON TAPE) UNLESS YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS IN THE WORLD, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU HAVE MANY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SURE MEET MORE ON THE CRUISE ACROSS)   > Having sailed on six transatlantic cruises, I can tell you that those   > sea days can be a complete joy.   >   > Although, I have never done a transatlantic on Princess, I can tell you   > that other cruiselines often have some very interesting daytime   > entertainment during crossings.  Some of the more enjoyable acts that I   > have seen have included:  opera and jazz singers, classical pianists and   > guitarists, professional pickpockets, and a capella groups.   >   > Of course if the weather is great, a given on south Atlantic crossings   > in May but more iffy on your route, laying out on deck with a stiff   > breeze, temps in the 70’s, and full sunshine is as close to perfect as   > it gets for me.   >   > Howie   >   > > We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May   > > 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After   > > that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast,   > > Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from   > > London.   > >   > > I know I can go to the gym & read a lot during the sea days, but what   > > else is there to do? We never go to the casino. Don’t want to eat all   > > day & put those pounds on.   > >   > > We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward   > > to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre.   > >   > > Thanks   > > Florence   > >   > >   > >   > >   >

Response:

Florence, Ten years ago we did our only Trans-Atlantic cruise on Crystal Harmony on a cruise which turned out to be a celebration of the 50th anniversary of D-Day. I honestly do not remember if the weather allowed us to much deck time, but because there are no ports on all of those sea days, the ship schedules many varying activities to insure that you will not be bored. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May > 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After > that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast, > Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from > London. > I know I can go to the gym & read a lot during the sea days, but what > else is there to do? We never go to the casino. Don’t want to eat all > day & put those pounds on. > We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward > to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre. > Thanks > Florence

Response:

>Will I be bored on a Transatlantic Cruise?

There will be 6 sea days before we arrive >in Dublin Ireland. Not at all!  I recently took a 15 night round trip Hawaii and we had four sea days going and five coming home.  Enjoyed every second of it.  Plenty to do and if you choose you can just *relax*. ~ Patty

Response:

>"COLORADOJACK" Screamed: >I WOULD DO A TRANSATLANTIC TRIP AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT….PLENTY TO DO, AND >JUST VISIT WITH A LOT OF NICE PEOPLE, RELAX AND LEAN BACK, TAKE A GOOD BOOK >OR A FEW TAPES YOU LIKE…(TRY THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR BOOKS ON TAPE) UNLESS >YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS IN THE WORLD, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU HAVE >MANY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SURE MEET MORE ON THE CRUISE ACROSS)

What?? WHAT?? What was that you said???? I can’t hear you! -Heather Remove CanOspam to email http://members.aol.com/nookeybear/index1.htm

Response:

>Plenty to do and >if you choose you can just *relax*.

Exactly. I would find alot less to do on a several hour flight than I would on a several week cruise. -Heather Remove CanOspam to email http://members.aol.com/nookeybear/index1.htm

Response:

>Florence, >Ten years ago we did our only Trans-Atlantic cruise on Crystal Harmony on a >cruise which turned out to be a celebration of the 50th anniversary of >D-Day. >I honestly do not remember if the weather allowed us to much deck time, but >because there are no ports on all of those sea days, the ship schedules many >varying activities to insure that you will not be bored.

My only other ‘cruise’ was in 1950 on the Niew Amsterdam from NYC to LaHavre.  I was 12.  We had bingo, and horse races, and played canasta (remember canasta), and I hung out with the other children on the ship (no children’s programs then), and played ping pong and I think I swam in the pool.  I think there were movies.   I also figured out ways to get up into first class (we were tourist).  I don’t remember being bored, but it was a simpler time. grandma Rosalie

Response:

Howie Did you say professional pickpockets? Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying attention. Florence

Response:

Thanks to all who responded. I hope Princess does have daytime entertainment. I’ll have to check the Princess board on Cruise Critic – someone there should know. Really don’t need to rest or relax. We’re retired & get enough rest at home. Florence

Response:

> Howie > Did you say professional pickpockets? > Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying > attention. > Florence

No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them (including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary slight of hand skills. Howie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Howie > Did you say professional pickpockets? > Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying > attention. > Florence > No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I > saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought > audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them > (including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to > know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting > character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary > slight of hand skills. > Howie

I can vouch for this one.  I was there.  After the professional piokpocket came down the aisle to the stage in the showroom, he produced a lot of stuff that he gleaned while just walking past the audience.  He produced watches, belts, wallets, etc. and had folks from the audience coming up on stage to claim them.  Darndest show we ever saw.   At the same time, he gave away some things to watch for in strange cities, so as not to become a victim of pickpockets. Ermalee <—had a blast with Howard and Eileen on that crossing

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Howie >>Did you say professional pickpockets? >>Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying >>attention. >>Florence >No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I >saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought >audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them >(including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to >know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting >character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary >slight of hand skills. >Howie > I can vouch for this one.  I was there.  After the professional > piokpocket came down the aisle to the stage in the showroom, he > produced a lot of stuff that he gleaned while just walking past > the audience.  He produced watches, belts, wallets, etc. and had > folks from the audience coming up on stage to claim them.  Darndest > show we ever saw.   > At the same time, he gave away some things to watch for in strange > cities, so as not to become a victim of pickpockets. > Ermalee <—had a blast with Howard and Eileen on that crossing

Thanks, Erm.  I forgot to mention that transatlantics offer a great opportunity for making good friends.  Our first cruise with Erm and Bill was on the Splendour crossing in April 1997.  After seven years, they remain our good friends and cruising buddies. Howie

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Howie > Did you say professional pickpockets? > Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying > attention. > Florence > No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I > saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought > audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them > (including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to > know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting > character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary > slight of hand skills.

But you "stole" Eileen’s heart. –Tom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Howie >>Did you say professional pickpockets? >>Please explain. Or were you just trying to see if I was paying >>attention. >>Florence >No Florence, I am not kidding.  It was a really wonderful show that I >saw on one of our Splendour crossings.  The guy was amazing.  He brought >audience members up to the stage and stole everything from them >(including a guys underwear) without their awareness.  I actually got to >know the dude during our long voyage, and he was a very interesting >character.  Unfortunately, I didn’t develop any of his extraordinary >slight of hand skills. > But you "stole" Eileen’s heart. > –Tom

Many years earlier, buddy. Howie

Response:

Patty, While we love the Hawaii round trip enough to have done it three times, there is a difference between a May cruise through the North Atlantic and a Hawaii trip. In 1994 we did New York to London via Honfleurs and I do not recall having the option of baking by the pool which is one of the reasons why we have done Hawaii three times. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Will I be bored on a Transatlantic Cruise? > There will be 6 sea days before we arrive >in Dublin Ireland. > Not at all!  I recently took a 15 night round trip Hawaii and we had four sea > days going and five coming home.  Enjoyed every second of it.  Plenty to do and > if you choose you can just *relax*. > ~ Patty

Response:

  Again I forgot, my vision is awful, I can’t drive a car, I have a hole in back of both my eyes that are to large to repair… I shall try and remember to watch myself as to posting…And they told me these are to be the golden years at 75?   I don’t have the strength to scream much more, unless its at my Grandchildren stepping on the flowers….   Thank you for reminding me to not shout…..who made this rule…I have spent 45 minutes on this message…..Maybe your turn will come   > >"COLORADOJACK" Screamed:   >   > >I WOULD DO A TRANSATLANTIC TRIP AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT….PLENTY TO DO, AND   > >JUST VISIT WITH A LOT OF NICE PEOPLE, RELAX AND LEAN BACK, TAKE A GOOD BOOK   > >OR A FEW TAPES YOU LIKE…(TRY THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR BOOKS ON TAPE) UNLESS   > >YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS IN THE WORLD, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU HAVE   > >MANY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SURE MEET MORE ON THE CRUISE ACROSS)   >   > What?? WHAT?? What was that you said???? I can’t hear you!   >   > -Heather   > Remove CanOspam to email   > http://members.aol.com/nookeybear/index1.htm

Response:

> …New York to London … I do not recall having > the option of baking by the pool…

Sailing out of NY for Ireland in May may well turn out not to be "baking by the pool" weather… though it certainly may be nice enough to spend much of the day on deck. A little more southerly [e.g. Ft. Lauderdale to Lisbon] route is a safer bet [as far as "baking by the pool" goes] at that time frame. But crossings are, none the less, rarely boring at any time of year, in my experience.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Patty, > While we love the Hawaii round trip enough to have done it three times, > there is a difference between a May cruise through the North Atlantic and a > Hawaii trip. > In 1994 we did New York to London via Honfleurs and I do not recall having > the option of baking by the pool which is one of the reasons why we have > done Hawaii three times. > — > DG in Cherry Hill, NJ > >Will I be bored on a Transatlantic Cruise? > There will be 6 sea days before we arrive >in Dublin Ireland. > Not at all!  I recently took a 15 night round trip Hawaii and we had four > sea > days going and five coming home.  Enjoyed every second of it.  Plenty to > do and > if you choose you can just *relax*. > ~ Patty

Response:

>>…New York to London … I do not recall having >the option of baking by the pool… > Sailing out of NY for Ireland in May may well turn out not to be "baking by > the pool" weather… though it certainly may be nice enough to spend much of > the day on deck. A little more southerly [e.g. Ft. Lauderdale to Lisbon] > route is a safer bet [as far as "baking by the pool" goes] at that time > frame. But crossings are, none the less, rarely boring at any time of year, > in my experience.

IMO, those southerly spring crossings are as good as it gets in cruising; and that’s pretty damn good. Howie

Response:

> IMO, those southerly spring crossings are as good as it gets in

cruising… I definitely agree.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>…New York to London … I do not recall having >>the option of baking by the pool… > Sailing out of NY for Ireland in May may well turn out not to be "baking by > the pool" weather… though it certainly may be nice enough to spend much of > the day on deck. A little more southerly [e.g. Ft. Lauderdale to Lisbon] > route is a safer bet [as far as "baking by the pool" goes] at that time > frame. But crossings are, none the less, rarely boring at any time of year, > in my experience. > IMO, those southerly spring crossings are as good as it gets in > cruising; and that’s pretty damn good. > Howie

Response:

> We are considering taking the Golden Princess sailing out of NY in May > 2005. There will be 6 sea days before we arrive in Dublin Ireland. After > that it gets more interesting as the ship also stops in Belfast, > Greenock Scotland, Le Havre, Rotterdam & Brugge before we fly home from > London.

Florence what a wonderful itinerary! I’m jealous!  I doubt very much that you will be bored during those six sea days.. From all the posts that I have read, they seem to have much more entertainment on sea days when taking a transatlantic! Sure is better than those loooong flights! The Golden Princess is a lovely ship..  > We like the idea of only having to fly one way & Lou is looking forward > to visiting the Normandy Beacheads from Le Havre.

This will be a very emotional experience and what a lovely time of the year to do it~Spring!  Go for it! –Jean

Response:

Here is a suggestion, Jack.  Since you are using Outlook Express as your reader, when you go to answer a note click "reply", and then click "Format" on the top toolbar and select "Rich Text (HTML)" Select a font size that is easy for you to read and when you are finished go back to "format" and select "Plain Text" That should make it easier for all of us. — DG in Cherry Hill, NJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   Again I forgot, my vision is awful, I can’t drive a car, I have a hole in > back of both my eyes that are to large to repair… I shall try and remember > to watch myself as to posting…And they told me these are to be the golden > years at 75? >   I don’t have the strength to scream much more, unless its at my > Grandchildren stepping on the flowers…. >   Thank you for reminding me to not shout…..who made this rule…I have > spent 45 minutes on this message…..Maybe your turn will come >   > >"COLORADOJACK" Screamed: >   > >I WOULD DO A TRANSATLANTIC TRIP AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT….PLENTY TO DO, > AND >   > >JUST VISIT WITH A LOT OF NICE PEOPLE, RELAX AND LEAN BACK, TAKE A GOOD > BOOK >   > >OR A FEW TAPES YOU LIKE…(TRY THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR BOOKS ON TAPE) > UNLESS >   > >YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS IN THE WORLD, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, BUT IF YOU > HAVE >   > >MANY FRIENDS, YOU WILL SURE MEET MORE ON THE CRUISE ACROSS) >   > What?? WHAT?? What was that you said???? I can’t hear you! >   > -Heather >   > Remove CanOspam to email >   > http://members.aol.com/nookeybear/index1.htm

Response:

Jean One of the reasons why we are considering this cruise is that we hate those flights from NY to Europe. You lose a whole nights sleep & I can’t sleep on a plane. Then when I get there it takes my body another day to get adjusted. This is why the west to east transatlantic appealed to me. Flying home from London won’t bother me. Regards Florence

Response:

Have to correct my last post. The west to east transatlantic cruise is what appealed to us. Never good at directions! Florence

Response:

Question:

We will be on a cruise in September, and one of the stops will be in Le Havre, France.  We are interested in a tour to Normandy, but Royal Caribbean’s prices seem to be pretty steep. Has anyone done a tour without using RCCL?  Who was the tour company? Thanks for input.

Response:

@corp.supernews.com: > We will be on a cruise in September, and one of the stops will be in Le > Havre, France.  We are interested in a tour to Normandy, but Royal > Caribbean’s prices seem to be pretty steep. > Has anyone done a tour without using RCCL?  Who was the tour company? > Thanks for input.

If by Normandy you mean the beaches YOu could rent a car (hint you must rent it out of France to avoid a 3 day minimum or just walk up to the desk and rent for the going rate. The beaches aren’t too far and the countryside is gorgeous Be sure to stop in Honfluer just over the Bridge from LeHavre.

Response:

We will be on a cruise in September, and one of the stops will be in Le Havre, France.  We are interested in a tour to Normandy, but Royal Caribbean’s prices seem to be pretty steep. Has anyone done a tour without using RCCL?  Who was the tour company? Thanks for input.

Response:

@corp.supernews.com: > We will be on a cruise in September, and one of the stops will be in Le > Havre, France.  We are interested in a tour to Normandy, but Royal > Caribbean’s prices seem to be pretty steep. > Has anyone done a tour without using RCCL?  Who was the tour company? > Thanks for input.

If by Normandy you mean the beaches YOu could rent a car (hint you must rent it out of France to avoid a 3 day minimum or just walk up to the desk and rent for the going rate. The beaches aren’t too far and the countryside is gorgeous Be sure to stop in Honfluer just over the Bridge from LeHavre.

Response:

Question:

We’re planning a fall cruise that stops at LeHarve. Options are trip to Paris, the D-day beaches or local water color tour. Anybody have any experiences they’d like to share. This year is a bit of a problem with the D-day beaches being the 60th anniversary. I tend to wonder of anything except the wrecked dock is left.                                                     Val Kraut

Response:

>We’re planning a fall cruise that stops at LeHarve. Options are trip to >Paris, the D-day beaches or local water color tour. Anybody have any >experiences they’d like to share. This year is a bit of a problem with the >D-day beaches being the 60th anniversary. I tend to wonder of anything >except the wrecked dock is left.

As it happens, I’ve been doing a very enjoyable armchair cruise this evening of the Royal Princess’ cruise around the British Isles last August and September. Le Havre: http://www.stubchaer.com/Cruise/12.1.LeHavre.htm Normandy: http://www.stubchaer.com/Cruise/12.2.Normandy.htm The author’s entire Northern Europe Cruise on the Royal Princess: http://www.stubchaer.com/Cruise/index.htm The author also has pictures of the Royal Princess in South America from January. I’m sure you’ll enjoy the journeys as much as I did.

Response:

>We’re planning a fall cruise that stops at LeHarve. Options are trip to >Paris, the D-day beaches or local water color tour. Anybody have any >experiences they’d like to share. This year is a bit of a problem with the >D-day beaches being the 60th anniversary.

Hi Val, I will be on the QE2 D-Day cruise with a group.  I plan on spending my day seeing everything possible.  Drop me a note after I return and I will be glad to share with you. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

We will be stopping at Le Havre as a cruiseport in early September. When is your cruise? We are exploring all the possibilities too. It’s a long stop on our ship so that helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We’re planning a fall cruise that stops at LeHarve. Options are trip to >Paris, the D-day beaches or local water color tour. Anybody have any >experiences they’d like to share. This year is a bit of a problem with the >D-day beaches being the 60th anniversary. > Hi Val, > I will be on the QE2 D-Day cruise with a group.  I plan on spending my > day seeing everything possible.  Drop me a note after I return and I > will be glad to share with you. > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

>When is your cruise? We are exploring all the possibilities too. It’s >a long stop on our ship so that helps.

Hi, We will be in Cherbourg on June 4th for the D-Day 60th anniversary celebration. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

We’re planning a fall cruise that stops at LeHarve. Options are trip to Paris, the D-day beaches or local water color tour. Anybody have any experiences they’d like to share. This year is a bit of a problem with the D-day beaches being the 60th anniversary. I tend to wonder of anything except the wrecked dock is left.                                                     Val Kraut

Response:

>We’re planning a fall cruise that stops at LeHarve. Options are trip to >Paris, the D-day beaches or local water color tour. Anybody have any >experiences they’d like to share. This year is a bit of a problem with the >D-day beaches being the 60th anniversary. I tend to wonder of anything >except the wrecked dock is left.

As it happens, I’ve been doing a very enjoyable armchair cruise this evening of the Royal Princess’ cruise around the British Isles last August and September. Le Havre: http://www.stubchaer.com/Cruise/12.1.LeHavre.htm Normandy: http://www.stubchaer.com/Cruise/12.2.Normandy.htm The author’s entire Northern Europe Cruise on the Royal Princess: http://www.stubchaer.com/Cruise/index.htm The author also has pictures of the Royal Princess in South America from January. I’m sure you’ll enjoy the journeys as much as I did.

Response:

>We’re planning a fall cruise that stops at LeHarve. Options are trip to >Paris, the D-day beaches or local water color tour. Anybody have any >experiences they’d like to share. This year is a bit of a problem with the >D-day beaches being the 60th anniversary.

Hi Val, I will be on the QE2 D-Day cruise with a group.  I plan on spending my day seeing everything possible.  Drop me a note after I return and I will be glad to share with you. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

We will be stopping at Le Havre as a cruiseport in early September. When is your cruise? We are exploring all the possibilities too. It’s a long stop on our ship so that helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We’re planning a fall cruise that stops at LeHarve. Options are trip to >Paris, the D-day beaches or local water color tour. Anybody have any >experiences they’d like to share. This year is a bit of a problem with the >D-day beaches being the 60th anniversary. > Hi Val, > I will be on the QE2 D-Day cruise with a group.  I plan on spending my > day seeing everything possible.  Drop me a note after I return and I > will be glad to share with you. > Best regards, > Ray > LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL > 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 > http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

>When is your cruise? We are exploring all the possibilities too. It’s >a long stop on our ship so that helps.

Hi, We will be in Cherbourg on June 4th for the D-Day 60th anniversary celebration. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > WASHINGTON (AFP) – A senior Republican lawmaker said that > deteriorating security in Iraq may force the United States to > reintroduce the military draft. > "There’s not an American … that doesn’t understand what we are > engaged in today and what the prospects are for the future," Senator > Chuck Hagel told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on > post-occupation Iraq. > "Why shouldn’t we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility > and pay some price?" Hagel said, arguing that restoring compulsory > military service would force "our citizens to understand the intensity > and depth of challenges we face." …

Yea, this is going to work!  Let’s send a bunch of troops who didn’t want to be in the military in the first place to fix the mess in Iraq. Of course, we could accuse them of being traitors if they refuse. Seriously, we are fortunate that no one thought of this right after 9/11.  There would have been political support for it then.  At least we are limited in our foreign adventures by our current supply of cannon fodder.

Response:

> I agree. They will at least wait for the election to be over. There is > no way in hell Bush would allow for this be done on his watch when he > can possible be elected to another term. Watch out after the election > though.

Even if Bush is re-elected it will not happen. Nothing short of another Pearl Harbor, mayhap a MoslemTerrorist attack on New York City with radiological weapons could bring the draft back. And if that happens watch out! If you thought Hiroshima and Nagasaki were fun, watch Meccah, Ryad, Bagdhad, Tehran and Damaskis go up in radioactive smoke. Jerusalem is safe. God lives there. Bob Kolker

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Look it is realy simple. > Bush wants to be re-elcted and so he says No Draft to the rich people so > they don’t worry about their kids being called up. > He wants the draft, but will do like his daddy did ("NO NEW TAXES") until > after the election and then call up the draft. > In the mean time he can use the issue against the democrats for bringing to > the floor and escape the fallout for it being his instigation. He expects > everyone to forget about the fact that he started this unwarranted holocost > in the first place. >   Can’t see a single flaw in your analysis.  You’re right, the gop’s >whole bait-and-switch scam is simple: convince the cannon fodder that >they won’t be called up, then grab them after they vote you back in. >   Luckily, our plan of action is simple, too: all we need to do is >not vote them back in. >   Among the many reasons that Kerry will be a better president than >the current incumbent – he’s not a halfwit hawk and he has been to >war.

I don’t believe either party wants a draft.  They know what the difference between Vietnam and Iraq is.  It’s the draft.  Support for our aggression over seas would dry up in a New York Minute if the draft was reinstated. Thumper

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> For your edification, not that you’ll likely understand: >> "Hagel served in Vietnam with his brother Tom in 1968. They served side by >> side as infantry squad leaders with the U.S. Army’s 9th Infantry Division. >> Hagel earned many military decorations and honors, including two Purple >> Hearts." >Indeed. >By the way there are two chances that the draft will be re-activated >anytime soon. Slim and None. >Bob Kolker >I agree. They will at least wait for the election to be over. There is >no way in hell Bush would allow for this be done on his watch when he >can possible be elected to another term. Watch out after the election >though.

He’s back to threatening Iran again. Even attacking Syria might require the draft. http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2004/04/22/bush_pledges_ira… http://eces.org/articles/000076.php

Response:

> Look it is realy simple. > Bush wants to be re-elcted and so he says No Draft to the rich people so > they don’t worry about their kids being called up. > He wants the draft, but will do like his daddy did ("NO NEW TAXES") until > after the election and then call up the draft. > In the mean time he can use the issue against the democrats for bringing to > the floor and escape the fallout for it being his instigation. He expects > everyone to forget about the fact that he started this unwarranted holocost > in the first place.

   Can’t see a single flaw in your analysis.  You’re right, the gop’s whole bait-and-switch scam is simple: convince the cannon fodder that they won’t be called up, then grab them after they vote you back in.    Luckily, our plan of action is simple, too: all we need to do is not vote them back in.    Among the many reasons that Kerry will be a better president than the current incumbent – he’s not a halfwit hawk and he has been to war.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > WASHINGTON (AFP) – A senior Republican lawmaker said that > > deteriorating security in Iraq may force the United States to > > reintroduce the military draft. > > "There’s not an American … that doesn’t understand what we are > > engaged in today and what the prospects are for the future," Senator > > Chuck Hagel told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on > > post-occupation Iraq. > > "Why shouldn’t we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility > > and pay some price?" Hagel said, arguing that restoring compulsory > > military service would force "our citizens to understand the intensity > > and depth of challenges we face." … >   "All of our citizens". "All". This would be a little easier to take > if the word "all* weren’t a blatant lie.  Since "all" is inappropriate > here, the statement is merely stupid and arrogant offer to waste of > the lives of others, a designated victime group. He most certainly > does not include his own precious life and future. IOW, not "all". >   To redeem himself, this truculent fool could demonstrate what he’s > preaching and rush to Iraq as a member of the armed forces. > Immediately. It might take up to 20 minutes to replace him with a > similarly ruthless congressdroid. >   To reinforce the lesson to the rest of us, he should help enlist his > son(s). >   Yes, indeed: let’s hear it for ‘responsibility’, Chuckie! Then let’s > observe Chuck as he go about ‘understanding the intensity and depth of > challenges’ when they include the daily possibility of death for > himself and his own offspring, or exactly what he’s directing other > people to do. It would be edifying to watch Chuckie learn – doubtless, > to his utter astonishment – that bleeding to death in the dust of some > 3rd world oil resource isn’t as much fun as living a long, expensively > comfortable life as a congressperson. >   I’d buy the book. > For your edification, not that you’ll likely understand: > "Hagel served in Vietnam with his brother Tom in 1968. They served side by > side as infantry squad leaders with the U.S. Army’s 9th Infantry Division. > Hagel earned many military decorations and honors, including two Purple > Hearts."

   And he apparently hasn’t learned anything from that experience. For him, the VN War Memorial is just stone with names on it.  He’s willing to sacrifice more American citizens, to view their deaths as an reasonable instrument of national policy.   If, despite the failure of the entire VN venture, he still remains convinced that the draft is a good thing for all our country’s citizens, then let him volunteer to go again.  Let him lead troops, among them his own children.  Legislators who are willing to sacrifice lives must not exempt their own lives from this lottery.  It is not too much to ask that legislators demonstrate their own seriousness of purpose by obeying the laws they propose and enact.    Anybody can sit in a clean, comfortable room and debate how many tax exemptions it takes to destroy an economy.  There are more than enough volunteers for that kind of ‘work’.  Let’s see him back up his opinion about the value of individual lives by offering his own.

Response:

> > > "Why shouldn’t we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility > > and pay some price?" Hagel said, arguing that restoring compulsory > > military service would force "our citizens to understand the intensity > > and depth of challenges we face." … >   "All of our citizens". "All". This would be a little easier to take > if the word "all* weren’t a blatant lie. > Yeah, no women in the draft, so you’re safe to spread your bullshit.

  So, you’re volunteering.     I’d be out because of age and fragility.  But how about you?  Ready to "bear some responsibility and pay some price"?  Want to go help the bushboys & their ultrarich pals plunder oil from yet another 3rd world tyranny?  Going to help out by paying with your life for a rich man’s party that you weren’t invited to?

Response:

Here is the bill currently working it’s way through congress. How many of these sponsors are Republicans? H.R.163 Title: To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B. [NY-15] (introduced 1/7/2003) Cosponsors: 13 Related Bills: S.89 Latest Major Action: 2/3/2003 House committee/subcommittee actions. Status: Executive Comment Requested from DOD. —- COSPONSORS(13), ALPHABETICAL [followed by Cosponsors withdrawn]:     (Sort: by date)       Rep Abercrombie, Neil – 1/7/2003 [HI-1]  Rep Brown, Corrine – 1/28/2003 [FL-3]       Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy – 1/28/2003 [MO-1]  Rep Conyers, John, Jr. – 1/7/2003 [MI-14]       Rep Cummings, Elijah E. – 1/28/2003 [MD-7]  Rep Hastings, Alcee L. – 1/28/2003 [FL-23]       Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila – 1/28/2003 [TX-18]  Rep Lewis, John – 1/7/2003 [GA-5]       Rep McDermott, Jim – 1/7/2003 [WA-7]  Rep Moran, James P. – 1/28/2003 [VA-8]       Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes – 1/28/2003 [DC]  Rep Stark, Fortney Pete – 1/7/2003 [CA-13]       Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. – 1/28/2003 [NY-12 Here is the bill currently working its way through the Senate. How many sponsors of this bill are Republicans? ----  S.89 Title: A bill to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Hollings, Ernest F. [SC] (introduced 1/7/2003)      Cosponsors: (none) Related Bills: H.R.163 Latest Major Action: 1/7/2003 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Armed Services. — If you don’t vote, you are the problem. Because by not voting, you have voted for the status quo. Brooks Gregory www.theaapc.org

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think a small minority of Americans support this idea. How much > money are Bush’s friends making off this war again? What did the stock > market do in protests in the 60’s? This is now CLEARLY a war of > convenience. The USA has no business other than greed to remain in > Iraq. The offending regime has been removed and the Iraqi people > should be allowed to find their own way… >On June 30 sovreignty will be transferred pro-forma. By June 30 of next >year we will be gone. The idea is to leave and save face. We never >should have invaded Iraq. We should have massively attacked it with >nuclear weapons. That way, not one American solider would have been >killed. The best Wogs, are dead Wogs. >Bob Kolker

Get back on those meds. Thumper

Response:

> I think a small minority of Americans support this idea. How much > money are Bush’s friends making off this war again? What did the stock > market do in protests in the 60’s? This is now CLEARLY a war of > convenience. The USA has no business other than greed to remain in > Iraq. The offending regime has been removed and the Iraqi people > should be allowed to find their own way…

On June 30 sovreignty will be transferred pro-forma. By June 30 of next year we will be gone. The idea is to leave and save face. We never should have invaded Iraq. We should have massively attacked it with nuclear weapons. That way, not one American solider would have been killed. The best Wogs, are dead Wogs. Bob Kolker

Response:

> For your edification, not that you’ll likely understand: > "Hagel served in Vietnam with his brother Tom in 1968. They served side by > side as infantry squad leaders with the U.S. Army’s 9th Infantry Division. > Hagel earned many military decorations and honors, including two Purple > Hearts."

Indeed. By the way there are two chances that the draft will be re-activated anytime soon. Slim and None. Bob Kolker

Response:

> WASHINGTON (AFP) – A senior Republican lawmaker said that > deteriorating security in Iraq may force the United States to > reintroduce the military draft. > "There’s not an American … that doesn’t understand what we are > engaged in today and what the prospects are for the future," Senator > Chuck Hagel told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on > post-occupation Iraq. > "Why shouldn’t we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility > and pay some price?" Hagel said, arguing that restoring compulsory > military service would force "our citizens to understand the intensity > and depth of challenges we face." …

I think a small minority of Americans support this idea. How much money are Bush’s friends making off this war again? What did the stock market do in protests in the 60’s? This is now CLEARLY a war of convenience. The USA has no business other than greed to remain in Iraq. The offending regime has been removed and the Iraqi people should be allowed to find their own way… it is THEIR country after all, or is it? The are better able to establish a strong country now than they were and will scarcely be better able if we continue to meddle in their affairs. Destroying the USA to meddle with another’s country is like cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. TimJowers

Response:

Look it is realy simple. Bush wants to be re-elcted and so he says No Draft to the rich people so they don’t worry about their kids being called up. He wants the draft, but will do like his daddy did ("NO NEW TAXES") until after the election and then call up the draft. In the mean time he can use the issue against the democrats for bringing to the floor and escape the fallout for it being his instigation. He expects everyone to forget about the fact that he started this unwarranted holocost in the first place.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> WASHINGTON (AFP) – A senior Republican lawmaker said that > deteriorating security in Iraq may force the United States to > reintroduce the military draft. > "There’s not an American … that doesn’t understand what we are > engaged in today and what the prospects are for the future," Senator > Chuck Hagel told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on > post-occupation Iraq. > "Why shouldn’t we ask all of our citizens to bear some responsibility > and pay some price?" Hagel said, arguing that restoring compulsory > military service would force "our citizens to understand the intensity > and depth of challenges we face." … >   "All of our citizens". "All". This would be a little easier to take > if the word "all* weren’t a blatant lie.  Since "all" is inappropriate > here, the statement is merely stupid and arrogant offer to waste of > the lives of others, a designated victime group. He most certainly > does not include his own precious life and future. IOW, not "all". >   To redeem himself, this truculent fool could demonstrate what he’s > preaching and rush to Iraq as a member of the armed forces. > Immediately. It might take up to 20 minutes to replace him with a > similarly ruthless congressdroid. >   To reinforce the lesson to the rest of us, he should help enlist his > son(s). >   Yes, indeed: let’s hear it for ‘responsibility’, Chuckie! Then let’s > observe Chuck as he go about ‘understanding the intensity and depth of > challenges’ when they include the daily possibility of death for > himself and his own offspring, or exactly what he’s directing other > people to do. It would be edifying to watch Chuckie learn – doubtless, > to his utter astonishment – that bleeding to death in the dust of some > 3rd world oil resource isn’t as much fun as living a long, expensively > comfortable life as a congressperson. >   I’d buy the book.

For your edification, not that you’ll likely understand: "Hagel served in Vietnam with his brother Tom in 1968. They served side by side as infantry squad leaders with the U.S. Army’s 9th Infantry Division. Hagel earned many military decorations and honors, including two Purple Hearts."

Response:

I enthusiastically support compulsory military service. One of the GREAT, GREAT, GREAT tragedies of American politics is apathy. At one end of the American economic spectrum are the Americans who have the GOOD LIFE. Life is so good that politics is often boring. They often gravitate to the Republican Party because of tax incentives, and their general philosophy is: WHY ROCK THE BOAT–LIFE IS GOOD. They have a 3,000 square foot home in suburbia, 2.4 kids attending prep school, a vacation home at the beach or in the mountains, two or three SUVs, and of course, granite countertops. On Saturday afternoons, soccer moms drop the kids off at the mall, and the cash registers start ringing. Of course, cell phones are a mandatory teenage fashion accessory. At the other end of the American economic spectrum are the Americans who live from paycheck-to-paycheck. Life is a daily struggle just to have food on the table, and to pay the bills. Mom and dad are exhausted from work and worry. Not having medical insurance is frightening. Unfortunately, these families view politics as boring too, because they don’t see much of a political difference between the Republican Party and the Democratic Party.They are still exhausted from work and worry, whomever is in office. Many young women and men currently fighting DUBYA’S WAR were raised in families at the lower end of the economic spectrum. Not all–but a sizeable percentage. Very few American rich kids are in the Middle East. For the vast majority of Americans, myself included, life has been pretty damn good. Life is always a struggle with overtones of Hell, but we were fortunate to have been born during an era of unparalleled economic prosperity, and a low ebb of military hostility. Our GOOD LUCK is slowly running out. We have lived a sheltered life in which many of the the world inhabitants have a disconnect, and can only observe American society through envious, and sometimes hostile, eyes. Apathy is about to turn a corner, and it’s the shot in the arm that will improve our political system. When Congressional leaders’ kids are subject to the draft, wars might give our leaders’ pause, when their kids are wearing combat boots. Some Congressional leaders will pull strings to have JUNIOR in cushy military jobs ( Off hand, I can’t think of instances where this has happened. COUGH! COUGH! ), but fewer kids of privilege will be able to wiggle out of military service. The paycheck-to-paycheck families will have less resentment when their sons and daughters die in combat, and the burden of fighting wars will be more evenly distributed. In the past apathy and 50% of the electorate voting, have morbidly shaped our political system. LET’S JUST HOPE APATHY IS DEAD. IF APATHY IS DEAD, MAYBE FEWER AMERICAN SOLDIERS WILL BE DYING IN THE MIDDLE EAST. If apathy is dead, maybe the American electorate will vote for QUALIFIED men and WOMEN to serve our country. Qualified leaders should be America’s future. Cameron

Response:

> No you don’t. >  This is a democrat thing all the way. > Mr. RANGEL[D], Mr. MCDERMOTT[D], Mr. CONYERS[D], Mr. LEWIS[D] of > Georgia, Mr. STARK[D], and Mr. ABERCROMBIE[D] in the House of > Representitives.   > In the Senate it was introduced by Mr. HOLLINGS[D], Senator from South > Carolina.

  Then a pox on all of them also, in addition to Mr. C. Hagel[R]. > The question is if passed by the House and by the Senate would President > Bush sign this into law? > According to > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/07/politics/main535532.shtml > President Bush has no plans to reinstitute the draft.

   ’Had’ no plans, past tense.  Not ‘has’ no plans.  We don’t know and can’t reasonably guess what the Resident will do next.  While this was a vitally important news at the time, that time was January 7, 2003. I suspect the posturing being done by protected ultra-patriots in the last few weeks concerns more timely proposals than those reported 16 months ago.    It was December 31, 2002 when CBS/AP reported on Mr. Rangel [D-NY] and his planned introduction of legislation regarding the draft. Below is a brief quote from that report: > Call To Restart Military Draft

   NEW YORK, Dec. 31, 2002 (CBS) Rep. Charles Rangel, a veteran of the Korean War, says he plans to introduce legislation to resume the military draft in the event of a war with Iraq.    In an opinion piece published in Tuesday’s editions of The New York Times, the Democrat from New York said he would ask Congress next week to support his proposal.    Rangel said the prospect of a draft would make Congress less likely to support a war. "I believe that if those calling for war knew their children were more likely to be required to serve