Question:

Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… Record breaking weather in Seattle these last days.  89 yesterday (78 during 11:00 news last night).  Projected to hit 90 today, and possibly 100 in outlying areas in Western Washington (all time high for Seattle is 100). Now, if I only didn’t have this damned summer cold and two new client meetings this afternoon… But, the good news is that I’m firing up the Datsun Roadster http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~SROC/imageROB/20BR.jpg for a drive up to the Canadian border tomorrow. To make this message somewhat amp related, I expect that the house will be hot enough that I won’t want to fire up any tube amps this weekend! Off topic, but at least NOT politics or religion. What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is > that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not humid > with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Record breaking weather in Seattle these last days.  89 yesterday (78 > during 11:00 news last night).  Projected to hit 90 today, and possibly > 100 in outlying areas in Western Washington (all time high for Seattle is > 100). > Now, if I only didn’t have this damned summer cold and two new client > meetings this afternoon… > But, the good news is that I’m firing up the Datsun Roadster > http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~SROC/imageROB/20BR.jpg for a drive up to the > Canadian border tomorrow. > To make this message somewhat amp related, I expect that the house will be > hot enough that I won’t want to fire up any tube amps this weekend! > Off topic, but at least NOT politics or religion. > What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the 1654 > (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

Thanks for the reminder! I think I’ll step outside and get some lunch, and admire Mt. Rainier on my way.

Response:

> What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the > 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

I didn’t intend to devalue the other fallen soldiers… Remember ALL soldiers that gave their lives for the U.S., REGARDLESS of your opinion on policy issues and whether the conflict was just.  The soldiers don’t get to set policy, they deserve our respect.

Response:

>> What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the > 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq. > I didn’t intend to devalue the other fallen soldiers… > Remember ALL soldiers that gave their lives for the U.S.,

WHAT makes people believe this? I guess it’s the "faith" crowd…fact? these kids buy into slick recruiting pitches that offer the unskilled, skills, the uneducated, a possible education, the unemployed, a paycheck, the emotionally needy a "brotherhood". Nowhere does the pitch offer the living a bodybag or a lifetime in and out of VA hospitals. They’re young, think they’re invulnerable and gamble via denial… >REGARDLESS of your opinion on policy issues and whether the conflict was just.

WAR and "Just"…another concept for terminally childish faith-based chickenhawks in denial. > The  soldiers don’t get to set policy,

They don’t even get to set their alarm or their lights out. That’s the tip of the iceberg. They’re armed fuckmeat sent to hell and if alive upon return, severely damaged upstairs–for life. they deserve our respect. Sounds like another guilt-ridden Vietnam civilian, decades later, over compensating.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is > that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not > humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Record breaking weather in Seattle these last days.  89 yesterday (78 > during 11:00 news last night).  Projected to hit 90 today, and possibly > 100 in outlying areas in Western Washington (all time high for Seattle > is 100). > Now, if I only didn’t have this damned summer cold and two new client > meetings this afternoon… > But, the good news is that I’m firing up the Datsun Roadster > http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~SROC/imageROB/20BR.jpg for a drive up to the > Canadian border tomorrow.

My room-mate in college (high-school chum) had one of those.  I got to drive it a LOT…  nice car actually.  It was everything an MGB *wished* it was, without the constant tune-ups and shit.  One thing for sure, the suspension is so TIGHT that one can suffer spinal compression on some roads.    It’ll certainly knock the tubes out of your amp if it’s in the back..! ! !  ;-) > To make this message somewhat amp related, I expect that the house will > be hot enough that I won’t want to fire up any tube amps this weekend!

Wimp..! ! > Off topic, but at least NOT politics or religion. > What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the > 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

They will not be forgotten. But, more *Heck*, on June 6th, don’t forget the approx 1400 Americans killed and 1900+ *missing* on D-day ALONE on the Normandy beaches in 1944. One day of fighting… In the next few weeks/MONTH(s) after D-Day the battle for Normandy (*part* of France) resulted in 37,000 dead Allied "ground troops" and another 16,700 air force deaths. That’s 53,000 dead Allied troops in the Battle of Normandy.  The Battle of the Bulge came later, of course… It is prudent to reflect on casualty figures of previous conflicts to keep current casualty *rates* in perspective.  Casualties are NEVER agreeable… but risk is inherent in human conflict, which is the nature of our existance. I’m sure that militaries, and military colleges around the world are studying how the US is keeping the casualties so low.  Nobody seems interested in critiquing how the initial pre-war "casualty estimates* were so far off/high. On another *note*, May 1-4th was the anniversary of the Battle of Chanclorsville… in Virginia.  The Union army and the Confederate army both had over 10,000 casualties…  one battle. And finally, while everyone celebrates July 4th as Independence Day, few ever stop to remember Gettysburg, July 1st,2nd, 3rd, 1863. On July 4th, 1863, those at Gettysburg had little to celebrate, even the *winners*.  Confederate causalities in dead, wounded and missing were 28,000 out of 75,000. Union casualties were 23,000 out of 88,000. Remember that *casualties* do not mean *killed*, it means "killed, wounded, or MIA."  But not many MIA were "found"… and not many wounded survived.  That is 51,000 total casualties… ALL of them *Americans*… Is "ironic" the correct word to describe how it *seems* there is a better chance that ‘less casualties’ would mean a better chance that each casualty would be "remembered"…??  The casualties at Gettysburg ensured that the USA would remain one nation (pretty significant in my book), and led to our becoming the great nation we are.  How is it that these men don’t have a *memorial* in Washington..???   Is it because we were fighting *ourselves*…??  Where is the *wall* with the names of the Gettysburg dead on it…???  It’s worth discussion as to why we memorialize 50,000+ VietNam War dead soldiers and not the Union Soldiers who *won* the war and "saved" the union at Gettysburg. I once read an interesting anecdote about Gettysburg.  Years and years after the battle, veterans of both sides re-united, as friends, at "the wall" on Cemetary Ridge, and drank a few beers together.  A Confederate vet said to the Yank "If on that day, we’d known there was cold beer on the other side of this wall, we’d have kept fighting and made it over.! " And IIRC, the Yank replied, "No you would not. We’d have defended it to the last..! ! " To anyone who finds themselves in the area, I highly recommend a visit to Gettysburg… it is quite beautiful country, and one can stand on Cemetary Ridge, at the wall, look across the feilds across which Pickett and his men charged, and pay homage to those lost souls to whom we ALL owe so much. gtski

Response:

>Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is >that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not >humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early…

Back in ‘93-’95 I had a project that took me out to Olympia/Seattle several times.  The weather was beautiful almost everytime I went.  I saw very little rain.  I mentioned that to several people who all said "oh we just say that the weather here is crappy to scare people off so we can have the place to ourselves."  I *think* they were kidding but I’m not sure.  :) BTW – did you ever get your computer to record? -Scott McKnight

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is > that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not > humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Record breaking weather in Seattle these last days.  89 yesterday (78 > during 11:00 news last night).  Projected to hit 90 today, and possibly > 100 in outlying areas in Western Washington (all time high for Seattle > is 100). > Now, if I only didn’t have this damned summer cold and two new client > meetings this afternoon… > But, the good news is that I’m firing up the Datsun Roadster > http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~SROC/imageROB/20BR.jpg for a drive up to the > Canadian border tomorrow. > To make this message somewhat amp related, I expect that the house will > be hot enough that I won’t want to fire up any tube amps this weekend! > Off topic, but at least NOT politics or religion. > What the heck, here comes the politics:  On Monday, don’t forget the > 1654 (and rising) Americans who have died in Iraq.

Ah, yes…after finishing college, I retired to the Olympic Penninsula for almost a year (1974-75).  The sunny and very pleasant summer was followed by daily rain until the end of May, at which time I drove back east.  I spent most of that year living in a cottage right on the Puget Sound, looking over the water and Mt. Rainier.  The cottage was in Longbranch, the southern-most point on the Key Pennisula.  From Tacoma, turn left at Purdy and keep going until you can’t.  More often than not, I managed to open my eyes for a few minutes each morning shortly after dawn, just in time to see the clouds roll in and obscure the mountain.  Then I’d go back to sleep.  It’s beautiful out there.  Sometime while I’m still fit to walk through the rural terrain, I’d like to visit again.  I’ll bet Gig Harbor is all built up and yuppified for quite a few years by now.  Thanks for waking up the memories. Phil

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is >that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not >humid with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Back in ‘93-’95 I had a project that took me out to Olympia/Seattle > several times.  The weather was beautiful almost everytime I went.  I > saw very little rain.  I mentioned that to several people who all said > "oh we just say that the weather here is crappy to scare people off so > we can have the place to ourselves."  I *think* they were kidding but > I’m not sure.  :) > BTW – did you ever get your computer to record? > -Scott McKnight

I’ve been so busy I haven’t played much, let alone moved in the direction of recording…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Everybody knows that the weather in Seattle sucks, right?  The truth is >>that we have some of the best summers, anywhere (dry and sunny, not humid >>with thunderstorms).  And summer has started early… > Back in ‘93-’95 I had a project that took me out to Olympia/Seattle > several times.  The weather was beautiful almost everytime I went.  I > saw very little rain.  I mentioned that to several people who all said > "oh we just say that the weather here is crappy to scare people off so > we can have the place to ourselves."  I *think* they were kidding but > I’m not sure.  :) > BTW – did you ever get your computer to record? > -Scott McKnight > I’ve been so busy I haven’t played much, let alone moved in the direction > of recording…

I went to Seattle once, it sucked. It’s full of Commies, California fudge packers, leftist pansy-asses, anti-war protesting losers, rug munchers and other assorted deviant slime. The fact that they have that Saddam-loving commie stooge McDermott as their congressman says it all. The place sucks, their football team sucks, their mayor sucks, everything about the place, including Mt Hood sucks. Here’s hoping Mt. Hood blows it’s top tomorrow and buries that assholes once and for all. The Socialist election-stealing perverts deserve what they get. Let the limp-wristed assholes have that cesspool of weirdoes & perverts all to themselves. STAY THERE, you cocksuckers!

Response:

> I went to Seattle once…

[nonsense deleted] Mt. Hood isn’t even in Washington State. So much for your nonsense.

Response:

> I went to Seattle once… > [nonsense deleted] > Mt. Hood isn’t even in Washington State. > So much for your nonsense.

Yeah, yeah, it was Mt. Rainier. (Figures you commie-loving traitiors’d name a mountain after some French pussy.)

Response:

> I’ll bet Gig Harbor is all built up and yuppified for > quite a few years by now.

Understatement of the week  Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here]  

Response:

> >> I went to Seattle once… > [nonsense deleted] > Mt. Hood isn’t even in Washington State. > So much for your nonsense. > Yeah, yeah, it was Mt. Rainier. (Figures you commie-loving traitiors’d name > a mountain after some French pussy.)

  Don’t condemn everyone in the state as "commie-loving traitiors", Jack. Not everyone here is a liberal; me least of all! Monte

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>I went to Seattle once… >>[nonsense deleted] >>Mt. Hood isn’t even in Washington State. >>So much for your nonsense. >Yeah, yeah, it was Mt. Rainier. (Figures you commie-loving traitiors’d name >a mountain after some French pussy.) >   Don’t condemn everyone in the state as "commie-loving traitiors", Jack. Not > everyone here is a liberal; me least of all! > Monte

And a lot of people don’t neatly fall into one of two categories.

Response:

> I’ll bet Gig Harbor is all built up and yuppified for > quite a few years by now. > Understatement of the week >  Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here]

Mike, Considering the last time I passed thru, it was 1975, I imagine I might not even recognize Long Branch or Key Center.  I can’t tell you how many beers I swilled down in the Key Center Tavern (a bona fide dive) or in the considerably more upscale establishment (can’t remember the name) in Gig Harbor where they served alfalfa sprouts on the whole wheat pizza.  I was just a lad of 22 back then and was willing to spend the last dollar in my wallet on beer or — you know — whatever — and frequently did.  It was a great experience to be free.  For almost 9 months, I never once worried about where my next meal was comming from or how my wallet would get filled up again.  I got to sit around the house with my friends and play guitar, chop wood (necessary for heat), and enjoy the scenery.  I also found the comfort of a very horny woman, same age as me, for several months.  It was the time of a lifetime.  For once, youth wasn’t wasted on the young.  I glad to be able to say that I was retired after I left college.  If I should die before I get another chance, it will be OK.  Besides, retirement for old folks couldn’t possibly match that experience!  I’d love to visit again.  I think someone from the east can never get over the size and scale of the fir trees. Regards, Phil

Response:

> I can’t tell you how many beers I > swilled down in the Key Center Tavern (a bona fide dive) or in the > considerably more upscale establishment (can’t remember the name) in Gig > Harbor where they served alfalfa sprouts on the whole wheat pizza.

Was that the "Tides Tavern"?  It’s reportedly still there.  Had a "gig" [sorry] there once about 25 years ago.  One of (if not THE) noisiest venues for acoustic music I’ve ever played. Haven’t really spent too much time in the south sound (at least the Kitsap side), but I did go to a wedding near Belfair last Summer.   Belfair, at least, is still nicely rural. There are a lot of places around here you’d never recognize anymore.   Woodenville, Redmond, Marysville, even Burlington have all become huge bedroom communities.  It now takes nearly an hour to drive through Everett on I-5 on a weekday afternoon.  Ah, progress. –Mike  Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here]  

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I can’t tell you how many beers I > swilled down in the Key Center Tavern (a bona fide dive) or in the > considerably more upscale establishment (can’t remember the name) in Gig > Harbor where they served alfalfa sprouts on the whole wheat pizza. > Was that the "Tides Tavern"?  It’s reportedly still there.  Had a "gig" > [sorry] there once about 25 years ago.  One of (if not THE) noisiest > venues for acoustic music I’ve ever played. > Haven’t really spent too much time in the south sound (at least the > Kitsap side), but I did go to a wedding near Belfair last Summer. > Belfair, at least, is still nicely rural. > There are a lot of places around here you’d never recognize anymore. > Woodenville, Redmond, Marysville, even Burlington have all become huge > bedroom communities.  It now takes nearly an hour to drive through > Everett on I-5 on a weekday afternoon.  Ah, progress. > –Mike >  Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here]

I did a search for Gig Harbor restaurants, and the Tides is still there. The menu looks unfamiliar, though that probably doesn’t count for much after 30 yrs.  It says, founded 1973, which should be about right, as I remember it looked very new inside.  It was a decent local music venue, though I can’t say how is was from the performer’s side. I recall, however, taking the Bremerton – Seattle ferry to visit the Paramount, where we took in lots of good shows: Bonnie Raitt & John Prine, Jackson Brown (maybe also w/ Raitt), Heart (the Wilson sisters could really kick butt),  Jerry Garcia Band (he sang Smokey R’s "If you feel like lovin’ me…" and we laughed about that all the way home), Return to Forever (can still remember how blown away we were — what Al DiMeola must have been all of 19 or 20), maybe a few other shows.  Tix were cheap in those days.  We bought fried smelts at Pike’s Market for the ferry ride home.  Those were the days. I’m quite certain that the place I’m thinking about in GH did a big business in whole wheat pizza with sprouts and other s**t we thought was good for us even though it tasted like something we’d feed to a cow or a goat.  Plenty of Olympia (good beer, or worse, Ranier) to wash it down with, and what we smoked before going in, so it didn’t really matter.  You’ll laugh when I say, "It was a big place with lots of wood." as if that doesn’t describe every building in that neck of the woods!  Being an Easterner, more specifically from NY, I tend to expect some brick or stone in whatever is built. The whole time I was there, I kept thinking how I should buy land.  Tacoma was in a depression and the unemployment rate was double digit.  Land must have been cheap.  Of course, I didn’t have two nickels to rub together, so it was just a pipe dream.  I painted the exterior of a house when the weather lifted in the spring and figured I’d better use that money to drive back east or I’d be stranded.  That’s when I woke up.  Ugh. Thanks for stirring up the memories! Phil

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I can’t tell you how many beers I >>swilled down in the Key Center Tavern (a bona fide dive) or in the >>considerably more upscale establishment (can’t remember the name) in Gig >>Harbor where they served alfalfa sprouts on the whole wheat pizza. >Was that the "Tides Tavern"?  It’s reportedly still there.  Had a "gig" >[sorry] there once about 25 years ago.  One of (if not THE) noisiest >venues for acoustic music I’ve ever played. >Haven’t really spent too much time in the south sound (at least the >Kitsap side), but I did go to a wedding near Belfair last Summer. >Belfair, at least, is still nicely rural. >There are a lot of places around here you’d never recognize anymore. >Woodenville, Redmond, Marysville, even Burlington have all become huge >bedroom communities.  It now takes nearly an hour to drive through >Everett on I-5 on a weekday afternoon.  Ah, progress. >–Mike > Mike Schway           |   [Picture your favorite quote here] > I did a search for Gig Harbor restaurants, and the Tides is still there. > The menu looks unfamiliar, though that probably doesn’t count for much after > 30 yrs.  It says, founded 1973, which should be about right, as I remember > it looked very new inside.  It was a decent local music venue, though I > can’t say how is was from the performer’s side. > I recall, however, taking the Bremerton – Seattle ferry to visit the > Paramount, where we took in lots of good shows: Bonnie Raitt & John Prine, > Jackson Brown (maybe also w/ Raitt), Heart (the Wilson sisters could really > kick butt),  Jerry Garcia Band (he sang Smokey R’s "If you feel like lovin’ > me…" and we laughed about that all the way home), Return to Forever (can > still remember how blown away we were — what Al DiMeola must have been all > of 19 or 20), maybe a few other shows.  Tix were cheap in those days.  We > bought fried smelts at Pike’s Market for the ferry ride home.  Those were > the days.

Those WERE the days..! ! ! !   I was there a number of times in ‘73…’74…’75… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m quite certain that the place I’m thinking about in GH did a big business > in whole wheat pizza with sprouts and other s**t we thought was good for us > even though it tasted like something we’d feed to a cow or a goat.  Plenty > of Olympia (good beer, or worse, Ranier) to wash it down with, and what we > smoked before going in, so it didn’t really matter.  You’ll laugh when I > say, "It was a big place with lots of wood." as if that doesn’t describe > every building in that neck of the woods!  Being an Easterner, more > specifically from NY, I tend to expect some brick or stone in whatever is > built. > The whole time I was there, I kept thinking how I should buy land.  Tacoma > was in a depression and the unemployment rate was double digit.  Land must > have been cheap.  Of course, I didn’t have two nickels to rub together, so > it was just a pipe dream.  I painted the exterior of a house when the > weather lifted in the spring and figured I’d better use that money to drive > back east or I’d be stranded.  That’s when I woke up.  Ugh. > Thanks for stirring up the memories! > Phil

Thats FUNNY..! ! !   I thought much of the same… although I HAD two nickels to rub together, I didn’t follow through….  who really knew..??? gtski

Response:

Question:

Would appreciate any suggestions for things to do and see in Vancouver in June.  I have found some interesting things through google but thought I would ask this group for some recommendations. Thanks for any help

Response:

> Would appreciate any suggestions for things to do and see in Vancouver in > June.  I have found some interesting things through google but thought I > would ask this group for some recommendations.

- Stanley Park, including stroll around perimeter on seawall (if you’re feeling fit enough) – Grouse Mountain Skyride, with subsequent chairlift to peak.  Excellent for late afternoon / evening (http://www.grousemountain.com/) – Stroll around perimeter of Canada Place – Seabus passenger ferry across Burrard Inlet – Day tour to Victoria, our provincial capital, on Vancouver Island (easily done if you start early enough) – Aquabus ride over to Granville Island for lunch – A drive to Whistler (2 hours driving), north of Vancouver If you’d like further guidance on any of these don’t hesitate to email back. Cheers, Geoff Glave email geoff at glave dot org Vancouver

Response:

> > Would appreciate any suggestions for things to do and see in Vancouver in > June.  I have found some interesting things through google but thought I > would ask this group for some recommendations. > – Stanley Park, including stroll around perimeter on seawall (if you’re > feeling fit enough) > – Grouse Mountain Skyride, with subsequent chairlift to peak.  Excellent for > late afternoon / evening (http://www.grousemountain.com/) > – Stroll around perimeter of Canada Place > – Seabus passenger ferry across Burrard Inlet > – Day tour to Victoria, our provincial capital, on Vancouver Island (easily > done if you start early enough) > – Aquabus ride over to Granville Island for lunch > – A drive to Whistler (2 hours driving), north of Vancouver

I’d add: – Museum of Anthropology – seaplane flight – Commercial Drive > Geoff Glave

Take care Jon — Jon Beasley-Murray                                  Latin American Studies http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/jbmurray/        University of British Columbia

Response:

No culture? Haven’t I heard about (although not actually HEARD) a Vancouver Symphony Orchestra? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> a city > with almost no culture, full of brain-dead hedonistic nouveaux-riches who > feel that hideously expensive weekends at Whistler, making money, and owning > a Porsche are the highest achievements to which a human being can aspire. If > you’re determined to visit a Canadian city, try Montreal instead— less > physically attractive but far, far more dynamic and interesting culturally > (the most European city in North America by far). Even stodgy Toronto at > least has a brain, whereas Vancouver’s brain rotted away sometime in the > mid-80s.

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What do you mean by sights?   There is lots of wonderful things to do in Vancouver.   There are great side trips, too. It has great sailing, camping, hiking, ice skating year round, sandy beaches, rafting, canoeing, parks, swimming, golf, motorcycling, cycling, mountain biking trails, horseback riding, interesting ethnic neighbourhoods to stroll and shop.  It has a great climate year round and beautiful scenery, lots of green spaces everywhere.  It is a safe city.  Thinking of the trips I made to Europe and the US, the only thing we don’t have are lots of museums, art galleries, and monuments.  The weather is so great here, you wouldn’t want to stay indoors to stroll through museums, but you would rather be outdoors.         If you have any questions, just ask.

 And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

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> What do you mean by sights?   There is lots of wonderful things to do in > Vancouver.   There are great side trips, too. It has great sailing, > camping, hiking, ice skating year round, sandy beaches, rafting, > canoeing, parks, swimming, golf, motorcycling, cycling, mountain biking > trails, horseback riding, interesting ethnic neighbourhoods to stroll > and shop.  It has a great climate year round and beautiful scenery, lots > of green spaces everywhere.  It is a safe city.  Thinking of the trips I > made to Europe and the US, the only thing we don’t have are lots of > museums, art galleries, and monuments.  The weather is so great here, > you wouldn’t want to stay indoors to stroll through museums, but you > would rather be outdoors.

I definitely agree you with the beauty of Vancouver, BC and the activities you can find there but I find it difficult to agree you with the weather being great there. I found it very rainy and changing all the time. I’ve visited the city 3 times (total visiting time 8 weeks) and I love it. Katja – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->         If you have any questions, just ask. >  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

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You might have better luck on a Canada travel news group.. I think there is a rec.travel.us-canada or something like that. rec.travel.europe focuses on travel TO Europe.. Michael

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would recommend skipping the city entirely; it’s still pretty (although > property developers, with the full cooperation of a compliant city > government, are working very hard to change that as quickly as possible), > but it’s also boring and expensive (especially the downtown hotels); a city > with almost no culture, full of brain-dead hedonistic nouveaux-riches who > feel that hideously expensive weekends at Whistler, making money, and owning > a Porsche are the highest achievements to which a human being can aspire. If > you’re determined to visit a Canadian city, try Montreal instead— less > physically attractive but far, far more dynamic and interesting culturally > (the most European city in North America by far). Even stodgy Toronto at > least has a brain, whereas Vancouver’s brain rotted away sometime in the > mid-80s. > However, if "fuck art, let’s dance" sums up your philosophy of life, > Vancouver just might be for you… at least it has some decent restaurants. > Not a single good bookstore, but some good restaurants. And some of them are > almost affordable. Ho-hum. > Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

Here’s a recent story we ran on lounge-hopping downtown hotel bars… I have to admit I think Vancouver is beautiful and fun, and I’d love to live there, but it is expensive and driven by business. Funky, whimsical and quirky never come into the equation, not even on Granville Island. http://www.GetLostMagazine.com/dumbass/2001/0102vancouver/vancouver.html Leslie Strom http://www.GetLostMagazine.com A Journal of Natural and Unnatural Events

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Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

Response:

>Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to >stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

You’d be better advised to post your question in a North American travel group rather than rec.travel.europe. —         <http://www.worldtable.com>   Food/Wine/Travel                      - The Fall 01-Spring 02 schedule for a cooking school in Gascony Links and notes on food, wine, travel and France in particular Our auto rental and leasing suggestions and proposal in Europe.

Response:

> Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

What the hey. Try the Barclay Hotel on Robson. A little shabby but great prices and location, very helpful staff. Leslie Strom http://www.GetLostMagazine.com A Journal of Natural and Unnatural Events

Response:

> > Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks. > What the hey. Try the Barclay Hotel on Robson. A little shabby but > great prices and location, very helpful staff.

Used to be called the Gifford.  And was then even more shabby.  (And yes, I stayed there for a while, in the early eighties.  Memories…)

Response:

Try the Kingston hotel on Richards, I am. Also, ask on alt.travel.canada

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing? Thanks.

Response:

I would recommend skipping the city entirely; it’s still pretty (although property developers, with the full cooperation of a compliant city government, are working very hard to change that as quickly as possible), but it’s also boring and expensive (especially the downtown hotels); a city with almost no culture, full of brain-dead hedonistic nouveaux-riches who feel that hideously expensive weekends at Whistler, making money, and owning a Porsche are the highest achievements to which a human being can aspire. If you’re determined to visit a Canadian city, try Montreal instead— less physically attractive but far, far more dynamic and interesting culturally (the most European city in North America by far). Even stodgy Toronto at least has a brain, whereas Vancouver’s brain rotted away sometime in the mid-80s. However, if "fuck art, let’s dance" sums up your philosophy of life, Vancouver just might be for you… at least it has some decent restaurants. Not a single good bookstore, but some good restaurants. And some of them are almost affordable. Ho-hum. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I would recommend skipping the city entirely; it’s still pretty (although >property developers, with the full cooperation of a compliant city >government, are working very hard to change that as quickly as possible), >but it’s also boring and expensive (especially the downtown hotels); a city >with almost no culture, full of brain-dead hedonistic nouveaux-riches who >feel that hideously expensive weekends at Whistler, making money, and owning >a Porsche are the highest achievements to which a human being can aspire. If >you’re determined to visit a Canadian city, try Montreal instead— less >physically attractive but far, far more dynamic and interesting culturally >(the most European city in North America by far). Even stodgy Toronto at >least has a brain, whereas Vancouver’s brain rotted away sometime in the >mid-80s. >However, if "fuck art, let’s dance" sums up your philosophy of life, >Vancouver just might be for you… at least it has some decent restaurants. >Not a single good bookstore, but some good restaurants. And some of them are >almost affordable. Ho-hum.

I hate to continue this very off-topic thread, but have no fear of being labeled brain dead or hedonist.  I will note that I have no need to visit a museum on every trip I take.  Vancouver has some good food and, as I recall, at least one significant museum out at the University.  The large market on the island in the center of the city was well worth seeing, if not exactly a reason to make a special trip to Vancouver.  As far as food goes, we had a terrific meal at Lumiere a few years back and some other good meals elsewhere in town.  One of the joys for us, was the discovery of some very fine BC wines, which are not available here in the US, or at least not in NY.  Luniere was kind enough to arrange a tasting menu paired with BC wines for every course.  The ice wines are superb (and expensive) but perhaps all that is just hedonism to some That said, I’ve also enjoyed Montreal.  Needless to say, each not only has its charms, but each is more accessible from different parts of the US.   Given the abstract choice, I might prefer Montreal, but having been to Montreal, Vancouver becomes the opportunity for learning about the way others live.  A vote of confidence in the local lifestyle is not implicit in the visit of a traveler. —         <http://www.worldtable.com>   Food/Wine/Travel                      - The Fall 01-Spring 02 schedule for a cooking school in Gascony Links and notes on food, wine, travel and France in particular Our auto rental and leasing suggestions and proposal in Europe.

Response:

No culture? Haven’t I heard about (although not actually HEARD) a Vancouver Symphony Orchestra? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> a city > with almost no culture, full of brain-dead hedonistic nouveaux-riches who > feel that hideously expensive weekends at Whistler, making money, and owning > a Porsche are the highest achievements to which a human being can aspire. If > you’re determined to visit a Canadian city, try Montreal instead— less > physically attractive but far, far more dynamic and interesting culturally > (the most European city in North America by far). Even stodgy Toronto at > least has a brain, whereas Vancouver’s brain rotted away sometime in the > mid-80s.

Response:

What do you mean by sights?   There is lots of wonderful things to do in Vancouver.   There are great side trips, too. It has great sailing, camping, hiking, ice skating year round, sandy beaches, rafting, canoeing, parks, swimming, golf, motorcycling, cycling, mountain biking trails, horseback riding, interesting ethnic neighbourhoods to stroll and shop.  It has a great climate year round and beautiful scenery, lots of green spaces everywhere.  It is a safe city.  Thinking of the trips I made to Europe and the US, the only thing we don’t have are lots of museums, art galleries, and monuments.  The weather is so great here, you wouldn’t want to stay indoors to stroll through museums, but you would rather be outdoors.         If you have any questions, just ask.

 And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

Response:

> What do you mean by sights?   There is lots of wonderful things to do in > Vancouver.   There are great side trips, too. It has great sailing, > camping, hiking, ice skating year round, sandy beaches, rafting, > canoeing, parks, swimming, golf, motorcycling, cycling, mountain biking > trails, horseback riding, interesting ethnic neighbourhoods to stroll > and shop.  It has a great climate year round and beautiful scenery, lots > of green spaces everywhere.  It is a safe city.  Thinking of the trips I > made to Europe and the US, the only thing we don’t have are lots of > museums, art galleries, and monuments.  The weather is so great here, > you wouldn’t want to stay indoors to stroll through museums, but you > would rather be outdoors.

I definitely agree you with the beauty of Vancouver, BC and the activities you can find there but I find it difficult to agree you with the weather being great there. I found it very rainy and changing all the time. I’ve visited the city 3 times (total visiting time 8 weeks) and I love it. Katja – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->         If you have any questions, just ask. >  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

Response:

You might have better luck on a Canada travel news group.. I think there is a rec.travel.us-canada or something like that. rec.travel.europe focuses on travel TO Europe.. Michael

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would recommend skipping the city entirely; it’s still pretty (although > property developers, with the full cooperation of a compliant city > government, are working very hard to change that as quickly as possible), > but it’s also boring and expensive (especially the downtown hotels); a city > with almost no culture, full of brain-dead hedonistic nouveaux-riches who > feel that hideously expensive weekends at Whistler, making money, and owning > a Porsche are the highest achievements to which a human being can aspire. If > you’re determined to visit a Canadian city, try Montreal instead— less > physically attractive but far, far more dynamic and interesting culturally > (the most European city in North America by far). Even stodgy Toronto at > least has a brain, whereas Vancouver’s brain rotted away sometime in the > mid-80s. > However, if "fuck art, let’s dance" sums up your philosophy of life, > Vancouver just might be for you… at least it has some decent restaurants. > Not a single good bookstore, but some good restaurants. And some of them are > almost affordable. Ho-hum. > Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

Here’s a recent story we ran on lounge-hopping downtown hotel bars… I have to admit I think Vancouver is beautiful and fun, and I’d love to live there, but it is expensive and driven by business. Funky, whimsical and quirky never come into the equation, not even on Granville Island. http://www.GetLostMagazine.com/dumbass/2001/0102vancouver/vancouver.html Leslie Strom http://www.GetLostMagazine.com A Journal of Natural and Unnatural Events

Response:

Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

Response:

>Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to >stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

You’d be better advised to post your question in a North American travel group rather than rec.travel.europe. —         <http://www.worldtable.com>   Food/Wine/Travel                      - The Fall 01-Spring 02 schedule for a cooking school in Gascony Links and notes on food, wine, travel and France in particular Our auto rental and leasing suggestions and proposal in Europe.

Response:

> Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

What the hey. Try the Barclay Hotel on Robson. A little shabby but great prices and location, very helpful staff. Leslie Strom http://www.GetLostMagazine.com A Journal of Natural and Unnatural Events

Response:

> > Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks. > What the hey. Try the Barclay Hotel on Robson. A little shabby but > great prices and location, very helpful staff.

Used to be called the Gifford.  And was then even more shabby.  (And yes, I stayed there for a while, in the early eighties.  Memories…)

Response:

Try the Kingston hotel on Richards, I am. Also, ask on alt.travel.canada

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing? Thanks.

Response:

I would recommend skipping the city entirely; it’s still pretty (although property developers, with the full cooperation of a compliant city government, are working very hard to change that as quickly as possible), but it’s also boring and expensive (especially the downtown hotels); a city with almost no culture, full of brain-dead hedonistic nouveaux-riches who feel that hideously expensive weekends at Whistler, making money, and owning a Porsche are the highest achievements to which a human being can aspire. If you’re determined to visit a Canadian city, try Montreal instead— less physically attractive but far, far more dynamic and interesting culturally (the most European city in North America by far). Even stodgy Toronto at least has a brain, whereas Vancouver’s brain rotted away sometime in the mid-80s. However, if "fuck art, let’s dance" sums up your philosophy of life, Vancouver just might be for you… at least it has some decent restaurants. Not a single good bookstore, but some good restaurants. And some of them are almost affordable. Ho-hum. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Can someone recommend a mid-range place (hotel, B&B, private quarters)  to > stay in Vancouver, BC?  And what sights should we not miss seeing?  Thanks.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I would recommend skipping the city entirely; it’s still pretty (although >property developers, with the full cooperation of a compliant city >government, are working very hard to change that as quickly as possible), >but it’s also boring and expensive (especially the downtown hotels); a city >with almost no culture, full of brain-dead hedonistic nouveaux-riches who >feel that hideously expensive weekends at Whistler, making money, and owning >a Porsche are the highest achievements to which a human being can aspire. If >you’re determined to visit a Canadian city, try Montreal instead— less >physically attractive but far, far more dynamic and interesting culturally >(the most European city in North America by far). Even stodgy Toronto at >least has a brain, whereas Vancouver’s brain rotted away sometime in the >mid-80s. >However, if "fuck art, let’s dance" sums up your philosophy of life, >Vancouver just might be for you… at least it has some decent restaurants. >Not a single good bookstore, but some good restaurants. And some of them are >almost affordable. Ho-hum.

I hate to continue this very off-topic thread, but have no fear of being labeled brain dead or hedonist.  I will note that I have no need to visit a museum on every trip I take.  Vancouver has some good food and, as I recall, at least one significant museum out at the University.  The large market on the island in the center of the city was well worth seeing, if not exactly a reason to make a special trip to Vancouver.  As far as food goes, we had a terrific meal at Lumiere a few years back and some other good meals elsewhere in town.  One of the joys for us, was the discovery of some very fine BC wines, which are not available here in the US, or at least not in NY.  Luniere was kind enough to arrange a tasting menu paired with BC wines for every course.  The ice wines are superb (and expensive) but perhaps all that is just hedonism to some That said, I’ve also enjoyed Montreal.  Needless to say, each not only has its charms, but each is more accessible from different parts of the US.   Given the abstract choice, I might prefer Montreal, but having been to Montreal, Vancouver becomes the opportunity for learning about the way others live.  A vote of confidence in the local lifestyle is not implicit in the visit of a traveler. —         <http://www.worldtable.com>   Food/Wine/Travel                      - The Fall 01-Spring 02 schedule for a cooking school in Gascony Links and notes on food, wine, travel and France in particular Our auto rental and leasing suggestions and proposal in Europe.

Response:

Question:

Several years ago, we used an airport shuttle service from CDG to our Paris hotel.  I can’t remember the name or find any information on it, however, and wonder if anyone here can tell me (if they still exist) and – better yet – tell me what their experience was. TIA, A.

Response:

The Roissybus runs to Etoile (Arc de Triomphe) and L’Opera.  It’s a service of Air France.

Response:

> The Roissybus runs to Etoile (Arc de Triomphe) > and L’Opera.  It’s a service of Air France.

A slight correction: ** Roissybus is a RATP (Gvt overtaking of Paris public transport) service. It runs every 1/4 of an hour between CDG and Op

Question:

punktilious schrieb: > With all the talk of airlines here, I thought no harm in asking.  How > does Lufthansa rate? We have reservations US to Italy via Frankfort. > Thanks. > — > I have flown the SFO-Munich Lufthansa flights several times though not for > several years now. At that time, they were flying 747s.

They still do. > The seats were very > comfortable and were made by Recaro. For those of you who are car > enthusiasts, Recaro is famous for making car seats that have great lumbar > and lateral support. My only objection was that the distance between seats > were closer than most other airlines, or at least that’s the feel that I > got. Service was above average. They also have an excellent safety record. I > would not hesitate to fly Lufthansa again.

Regards & F’up2, ULF

Response:

nitram schrieb: >I’ve flown Lufthansa a few times, and found their service pretty good, >and their food is better than Alitalia, which isn’t really high >praise. > Lufthansa pioneered fobbing economy passengers off with a stale bread > roll more than 30 years ago.

On long-haul flights? Not that sure about FRA – Italy. Regards, ULF -> rta

Response:

Geoff Glave schrieb: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> With all the talk of airlines here, I thought no harm in asking.  How > does Lufthansa rate? > Flew them last month in economy, YVR <=> FRA <=> (SPAIN).  Pretty > typical of any economy-class transatlantic really… > PROs: > – 2 hot meals served > – Liquor cart travelling constantly and always available > – "Moving map" showing where we were > – Left on time.  We pushed back and taxied while people were still > getting settled. > – De-planed in FRA by both front and rear doors > – Seating config on my flight meant we had two seats to ourselves > CONs: > – Wife’s seat broken in both directions > – Only two movies shown in a nearly eleven-hour flight.  They could > have easily shown five.  All other inflight entertainment was rubbish > – Frankfurt’s a horrible airport with nowhere to sit,

There are seats, just find them. I agree that there might be not enough seats available in boarding areas. > full of > cigarette smoke

Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA. > – Terrible seat pitch (I’m 6′3" – They show a little animated movie > about some in-seat exercises that you should do – What a joke, I could > barely open a paperback book, much less exercise in my seat)

Regards & f’up2, ULF

Response:

<There are seats, just find them. I agree that there might be not enough <seats available in boarding areas. I’ve never had a problem with seats in boarding areas, or just go sit in an empty nearby area. <Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA. I imagine if you are a smoker, but not like in the US where you can’t smoke at all in airports and many other places.  It may not be smokey by your standards, especially if you are used to smoke (as is common in German restaurants and other places), but it is smokey by other peoples’ standards that are not constantly exposed to smoke. George

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->nitram schrieb: >> >I’ve flown Lufthansa a few times, and found their service pretty good, >> >and their food is better than Alitalia, which isn’t really high >> >praise. >> Lufthansa pioneered fobbing economy passengers off with a stale bread >> roll more than 30 years ago. >On long-haul flights? > Amsterdam-Munich > It was enough to put me off flying Lufthansa on a long haul flight.

This is pretty much standard for German bread IME. It took me four years to discover that I had to go to the Turkish shop to find bread that didn’t have the appearance of being made three days ago (I’ve no idea if the German stuff is deliberatley made to be stale immediately or if really is always three days old when you buy it) tim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Martin

Response:

> > full of > cigarette smoke > Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA.

Well, perhaps compared to an Asian or European airport, but compared to a North American airport it’s FULL of cigarette smoke.  Throughout the concourses at FRA there are "Smoking Areas" which are basically podiums that numerous people stand at while smoking.  The smoke goes everywhere.  I’m a cigar (not cigarette) smoker and I feel the rules at FRA should be like the other airports I’ve been in – Either a completely sealed and ventilated room or outside. Cheers, Geoff Glave Vancouver, Canada

Response:

> > > full of > > cigarette smoke > Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA. > Well, perhaps compared to an Asian or European airport, but compared to > a North American airport it’s FULL of cigarette smoke.  Throughout the > concourses at FRA there are "Smoking Areas" which are basically podiums > that numerous people stand at while smoking.  The smoke goes > everywhere.

I agree- it’s quite uncomfortable. The only European airports I’ve been in with total bans are ones like BGO, where it is a country-wide policy. Has this affected Italian airports I wonder? — David Horne- www.davidhorne.net usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Geoff Glave schrieb: > > With all the talk of airlines here, I thought no harm in asking.  How > > does Lufthansa rate? > Flew them last month in economy, YVR <=> FRA <=> (SPAIN).  Pretty > typical of any economy-class transatlantic really… > PROs: > – 2 hot meals served > – Liquor cart travelling constantly and always available > – "Moving map" showing where we were > – Left on time.  We pushed back and taxied while people were still > getting settled. > – De-planed in FRA by both front and rear doors > – Seating config on my flight meant we had two seats to ourselves > CONs: > – Wife’s seat broken in both directions > – Only two movies shown in a nearly eleven-hour flight.  They could > have easily shown five.  All other inflight entertainment was rubbish > – Frankfurt’s a horrible airport with nowhere to sit, > There are seats, just find them. I agree that there might be not enough > seats available in boarding areas. > full of > cigarette smoke > Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA.

In theory ,yes.  Nevertheless there’s tobacco smoke almost everywhere.

Response:

> I agree- it’s quite uncomfortable. The only European airports I’ve been > in with total bans are ones like BGO, where it is a country-wide policy. > Has this affected Italian airports I wonder?

I didn’t see any smoking areas in Venice (Marco Polo) airport yesterday. Italy’s new anti-smoking regulations seem quite draconian, btw.  They seem to mean that there are no smoking hotel rooms, for instance.  That goes beyond any North American regulations of which I’m aware. Take care Jon — Jon Beasley-Murray                                  Latin American Studies http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/jbmurray/        University of British Columbia

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Geoff Glave schrieb: > > With all the talk of airlines here, I thought no harm in asking. How > > does Lufthansa rate? > Flew them last month in economy, YVR <=> FRA <=> (SPAIN).  Pretty > typical of any economy-class transatlantic really… > PROs: > – 2 hot meals served > – Liquor cart travelling constantly and always available > – "Moving map" showing where we were > – Left on time.  We pushed back and taxied while people were still > getting settled. > – De-planed in FRA by both front and rear doors > – Seating config on my flight meant we had two seats to ourselves

What you described is pretty much standard on all major airlines. I’ve had no problems with Lufthansa. But from an international airline standard they are "average" at best. Slightly better than United, for example. Way better than Air France. But not even on the same level as Singapore. > CONs: > – Wife’s seat broken in both directions > – Only two movies shown in a nearly eleven-hour flight.  They could > have easily shown five.  All other inflight entertainment was rubbish > – Frankfurt’s a horrible airport with nowhere to sit, > There are seats, just find them. I agree that there might be not enough > seats available in boarding areas. > full of > cigarette smoke > Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA.

I think the original poster is talking about the FRA in Germany. I’m not sure which Frankfurt you are talking about. The last time I was in that airport (about 3 months ago) they still have the "smoking areas" which are in the middle of the walkway so that you get to breath the smoke for 50 meters in every direction. And you get to walk through a cloud of smoke ever few minutes as you move through the airport.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are seats, just find them. I agree that there might be not >enough > seats available in boarding areas. > > full of > > cigarette smoke > Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA. >I think the original poster is talking about the FRA in Germany. I’m >not sure which Frankfurt you are talking about. The last time I was in >that airport (about 3 months ago) they still have the "smoking areas" >which are in the middle of the walkway so that you get to breath the >smoke for 50 meters in every direction. And you get to walk through a >cloud of smoke ever few minutes as you move through the airport.

The clouds of cigarette smoke are even worse in the business lounges at FRA. They stink like hell.  Sort of like Europeans in general…. Lufthansa is very weird about borading. They have these brilliant ideas of boarding sequences and try them out every once in a while. Board the back first. Board the windows first. Board the aisles first. Board the alternate seats on second tuesdays… None of their schemes work very well. They also let everyone into the boarding areas then kick them all out again so that they can let everyone back into the boarding areas. This creates a lot of confusion and anger among the cattle class.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> There are seats, just find them. I agree that there might be not >enough >> seats available in boarding areas. >> > full of >> > cigarette smoke >> Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA. >I think the original poster is talking about the FRA in Germany. I’m >not sure which Frankfurt you are talking about. The last time I was in >that airport (about 3 months ago) they still have the "smoking areas" >which are in the middle of the walkway so that you get to breath the >smoke for 50 meters in every direction. And you get to walk through a >cloud of smoke ever few minutes as you move through the airport. > The clouds of cigarette smoke are even worse in the business lounges > at FRA. They stink like hell.  Sort of like Europeans in general…. > Lufthansa is very weird about borading. They have these brilliant > ideas of boarding sequences and try them out every once in a while. > Board the back first. > Board the windows first. > Board the aisles first. > Board the alternate seats on second tuesdays… > None of their schemes work very well. > They also let everyone into the boarding areas then kick them all out > again so that they can let everyone back into the boarding areas. This > creates a lot of confusion and anger among the cattle class.

It’s kind of funny to watch the boarding process in FRA for LH flights to Africa. They are very restrictive about the size of carry on luggage. With the blacks. Whites are allowed to carry pianos on if they choose.

Response:

I have flown with Lufthansa into Birmingham International, England (BHX) and I am convinced the Altimeter setting is wrong causing the plane to think the ground is 50ft lower than it really is, the result of this is very heavy landings (overhead lockers open, etc). Is this possible or are the pilots bored, fancy landing manually and cant get it right.

Response:

> I think the original poster is talking about the FRA in Germany. I’m > not sure which Frankfurt you are talking about. The last time I was in > that airport (about 3 months ago) they still have the "smoking areas" > which are in the middle of the walkway so that you get to breath the > smoke for 50 meters in every direction. And you get to walk through a > cloud of smoke ever few minutes as you move through the airport.

The last time I was in FRA was a few hours ago, and it was still as smoke-clogged as ever. And FRA has got to be the only airport where you actually have to buy a ticket to go out on the observation deck (say, if you wanted some fresh air without standing in the road outside). miguel — Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu Latest photos: Jordan, Turkey, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Israel

Response:

> The clouds of cigarette smoke are even worse in the business lounges > at FRA. They stink like hell.  Sort of like Europeans in general…. > Lufthansa is very weird about borading. They have these brilliant > ideas of boarding sequences and try them out every once in a while. > Board the back first. > Board the windows first. > Board the aisles first. > Board the alternate seats on second tuesdays… > None of their schemes work very well.

that’s because the gate staff don’t enforce it and thus everyone learns to ignores it. tim

Response:

> > I think the original poster is talking about the FRA in Germany. I’m > not sure which Frankfurt you are talking about. The last time I was in > that airport (about 3 months ago) they still have the "smoking areas" > which are in the middle of the walkway so that you get to breath the > smoke for 50 meters in every direction. And you get to walk through a > cloud of smoke ever few minutes as you move through the airport. > The last time I was in FRA was a few hours ago, and it was still as > smoke-clogged as ever.

Terminal 2 is ok as it much more spacious allowing the smoke to dissipate. I can only smell smoke when near the stand up ’smoking stations’. Not that it bothers me though

Response:

Capture Boy schrieb: > I have flown with Lufthansa into Birmingham International, England (BHX) and > I am convinced the Altimeter setting is wrong causing the plane to think the > ground is 50ft lower than it really is, the result of this is very heavy > landings (overhead lockers open, etc). > Is this possible or are the pilots bored, fancy landing manually and cant > get it right.

Maybe there were sidewinds that require a hard landing. Regards, ULF

Response:

Tchiowa schrieb: > It’s kind of funny to watch the boarding process in FRA for LH flights > to Africa. They are very restrictive about the size of carry on > luggage. With the blacks. Whites are allowed to carry pianos on if they > choose.

Well, they are restrictive on carry-on luggage already at security. Regards, ULF

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>There are seats, just find them. I agree that there might be not >>enough >>>seats available in boarding areas. >>>>full of >>>>cigarette smoke >>>Smoking is strongly restricted at FRA. >>I think the original poster is talking about the FRA in Germany. I’m >>not sure which Frankfurt you are talking about. The last time I was > in >>that airport (about 3 months ago) they still have the "smoking > areas" >>which are in the middle of the walkway so that you get to breath the >>smoke for 50 meters in every direction. And you get to walk through > a >>cloud of smoke ever few minutes as you move through the airport. >The clouds of cigarette smoke are even worse in the business lounges >at FRA. They stink like hell.  Sort of like Europeans in general…. >Lufthansa is very weird about borading. They have these brilliant >ideas of boarding sequences and try them out every once in a while. >Board the back first. >Board the windows first. >Board the aisles first. >Board the alternate seats on second tuesdays… >None of their schemes work very well. >They also let everyone into the boarding areas then kick them all out >again so that they can let everyone back into the boarding areas. > This >creates a lot of confusion and anger among the cattle class. > It’s kind of funny to watch the boarding process in FRA for LH flights > to Africa. They are very restrictive about the size of carry on > luggage. With the blacks. Whites are allowed to carry pianos on if they > choose.

Would you get cross with someone who is managing to carry a piano?

Response:

>> It’s kind of funny to watch the boarding process in FRA for LH flights > to Africa. They are very restrictive about the size of carry on > luggage. With the blacks. Whites are allowed to carry pianos on if they > choose.

Yeah, last month I was doing my FRA-LOS flight and was watching the antics of the people trying to bring huge or heavy carry-ons on board. One fellow decided he was going to jolly the ticket attendant out of checking him so when he handed her his ticket and she asked ‘what do you have in your carry on?’ (He had left it a few steps away from the podium) he replied "My Goat.", then started laughing. She laughed right along with him and then told him to bring his goat over because she wanted to see how heavy it was. The poor guy sort of gulped and then went to get his carry-on. When he tried to lift it, the handle came right off in his hand…. Never seen such a range of colours before on one persons face. Slim

Response:

> Capture Boy schrieb: > Is this possible or are the pilots bored, fancy landing manually and > cant get it right. > Maybe there were sidewinds that require a hard landing.

When I swapped from JAL to Qantas, I noticed that the Qantas landings were noticeably heavy, whereas the JAL landings had been remarkably light. Someone said it was airline policy, to save fuel? Couldn’t work that one out. I remember one Qantas landing at LAX in particular. the pilot had come on as we were approaching, did the thanks for flying with us routine, and logged off.  Teh landing was incredible, the plane dropped like a stone from a great height and all the passengers started snarling and gibbering in surprise. The pilot suddenly came back on the speaker: "WE HAVE LANDED!" he said very defiantly. Passengers muttered and grumbled. I dont’ know if he miscalculated or what, but it was pretty funny. ant

Response:

> The poor guy sort of gulped and then went to get his carry-on. When he > tried to lift it, the handle came right off in his hand…. > Never seen such a range of colours before on one persons face.

Ha! Good story. I remember flying JAL from Oz to Narita to Vancouver, and being astonished at how the japanese were bringing on carry-on bags the same size as my 85 litre checked backpack! plus duty-free, tennis raquets and coats. Somehow the hosties managed to stow it all. and somehow the plane took off although it wallowed horribly. ant

Response:

Question:

I asked this question several months ago and got a variety of answers. I can tell you that I completed the trip on Monday, February 21 (Presidents Day in the US) and walked right through in less than 10 minutes, once we got in the customs hall. The walk from the jetway was endless, however, and involved walking up and down stairs. There was one other plane being processed besides ours, so time could be longer if many more planes had arrived.

Response:

> I asked this question several months ago and got a variety of answers. > I can tell you that I completed the trip on Monday, February 21 > (Presidents Day in the US) and walked right through in less than 10 > minutes, once we got in the customs hall. The walk from the jetway was > endless, however, and involved walking up and down stairs. There was > one other plane being processed besides ours, so time could be longer > if many more planes had arrived.

Congrats! I’m not a million-mile traveler, but I’ve been through MIA on my way to and from the caribbean. IME, the traffic in MIA depends very much on weather all over the system. When the flights are late to take off, late to land, and traffic is backed-up in the system, those lines get very long. You were lucky this time, but just like the games in Vegas, the averages will get you eventually! — ipgrunt

Response:

>I asked this question several months ago and got a variety of answers. >I can tell you that I completed the trip on Monday, February 21 >(Presidents Day in the US) and walked right through in less than 10 >minutes, once we got in the customs hall. The walk from the jetway was >endless, however, and involved walking up and down stairs. There was >one other plane being processed besides ours, so time could be longer >if many more planes had arrived.

We came back in March on Friday the 13th from Belize and were through quick as a whistle – no one else there at all and the luggage came right out too. grandma Rosalie

Response:

I am returning from the Caribbean on the President’s Day holiday (Feb. 21), changing planes in the early evening (8 PM) at Miami International Airport. Scheduled time between flights is 80 minutes. I will have to go through Customs and immigration, and am a U.S. citizen. Is this enough time to be relaxed about not missing my connection? (It’s the last flight of the day for my destination.)

Response:

>I am returning from the Caribbean on the President’s Day holiday (Feb. >21), changing planes in the early evening (8 PM) at Miami International >Airport. Scheduled time between flights is 80 minutes. I will have to >go through Customs and immigration, and am a U.S. citizen. >Is this enough time to be relaxed about not missing my connection? >(It’s the last flight of the day for my destination.)

Maybe at that time in the evening you may just make it. If it’s American to American or carrier/same carrier you stand a batter chance … so do your bags. A lot depends on what other flights are coming at it that time and from where. I have transited MIA many times – sometimes no probs (I have a UK p/port), other times it has taken me up to 3 hours to get through immigration with lines 100 yards long. But I blv your evening timings should make it easier. Good luck! — Tom Withycombe Dorset/UK

Response:

Tom– Thanks. I am flying American on both legs of the trip, but if the line is 3 hours (or even half that) I’m going to end up in a hotel for one night, and the airline isn’t going to pay.

Response:

> I am returning from the Caribbean on the President’s Day holiday (Feb. > 21), changing planes in the early evening (8 PM) at Miami International > Airport. Scheduled time between flights is 80 minutes. I will have to > go through Customs and immigration, and am a U.S. citizen. > Is this enough time to be relaxed about not missing my connection? > (It’s the last flight of the day for my destination.)

"Relaxed" — you gotta be kidding. I’ve always felt that the MIA customs and immigration was quite a cattle operation.  Tho’, it’s gotten a wee bit better in the last year or so.  Just a weeeeeeeeeeee bit……. But, you don’t just have immigration, and then customs. You also have to pass through The Illusion Of Security.   As well, you need to transfer your (now un-)checked baggage back into the (in your case) A/A system.  (Which is no longer "just outside the door" at customs now.  Last month we had to haul our bags down yet-another-damn-gerbil-tube to a distant A/A location.) And, of course, your incoming flight will arrive late.  (Almost every flight I’ve traveled on into MIA seems to have arrived as a complete surprise to the ground operations people, and we have to cool our heels out on the taxiway — waiting for a gate to become free.) And, you’ll probably come in on the E concourse and fly out of the A concourse — as we did last month, flying in from Sint Marteen and connecting on to Denver.  Or, some equally challenging "hike". Jeeeeez!  Travel by air now-a-days is such a wretched affair. Sorry about the rant. HNY Jonesy —   | Marvin L Jones       | jonz         |  W3DHJ   |  linux   |   7,703′ — 2,345m   |   config.com |  DM68mn              SK

Response:

> Jeeeeez!  Travel by air now-a-days is such a wretched affair. > Sorry about the rant. > HNY > Jonesy

Jonesy, I agree with you.  Immigration in the US has not been a problem, but US Customs has been a PITA.  I took my mother to France in July for a family reunion.  Coming home, US Customs wanted to know where I stayed in France.  I stayed at the "Sofitel" and with relatives.  "Can I see your hotel receipts?"  I showed her my receipts, then she said, "It says Accor hotels, not Sofitel! Can you explain this!"  Accor hotels owns Sofitel, but why do I have to explain this?  They went through every piece of luggage, plus I had to dump my purse.  They asked who went with me and they wanted to know who I saw in France.  Then they made me write everyone’s names down! I was in Customs for a long time, and my husband was outside waiting for me.  Poor guy, he was afraid I missed my flight. Unreal. I am not sure if the terrorists are bothered by any of this, but it really irks me.  Something needs to be done about this. Becca

Response:

> I am not sure if the terrorists are bothered by any of this, but it > really irks me.  Something needs to be done about this. > Becca

What could be done has been in the voting booth.  Now that the USA has another 4 years of fear mongering, you are just where they want you, in the viewfinder of their "security camera". For now, just deal with it or you will be labeled a terrorist and unpatriotic. I make a point of flying home from international locations on weekdays. Weekends in Cust/Immigration (esp in Miami) is just nuts, leading to the stupidity you experienced. Mtbchip

Response:

>Tom– >Thanks. >I am flying American on both legs of the trip, but if the line is 3 >hours (or even half that) I’m going to end up in a hotel for one night, >and the airline isn’t going to pay.

Fred, if American delivers you on time and you can’t make the connection (they have people walking the lines trying to extract passengers for connecting flights) so that may be speeded up, then they will take some ownership. This has certainly happened in my case (on more than one occasion). The problem/challenge is getting transited/checked in quickly for the connecting flight. The security lines can be slow and intense. Tempers get frayed people get irritated. But – if that’s the way you’ve elected to travel just get on with it. It’s the same for everyone. Take a book and a pound or two of valium or similar and smile your way through. There is no option …. certainly getting fussed or upset slows the process. In due course you will get home safe and sound – which is the main objective. Don’t worry – you’ll make it. Everyone does eventually. I have to run this gauntlet in mid Jan when I travel from Jamaica to Beef Island Tortola (over San Juan) and I’m not looking forward to it. It’s a nuisance but that’s the way these days. C’est la vie! Hope it goes smoothly for you. A Happy New Year to all. Tom W. — Tom W Dorset/UK Website: www.classichideaways.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am not sure if the terrorists are bothered by any of this, but it >  really irks me.  Something needs to be done about this. > Becca > What could be done has been in the voting booth.  Now that the USA > has another 4 years of fear mongering, you are just where they want > you, in the viewfinder of their "security camera". > For now, just deal with it or you will be labeled a terrorist and > unpatriotic.

They say the pendulum swings, I will be glad when it does. Maybe four years from now, when we have a new president. Becca

Response:

I am returning from the Caribbean on the President’s Day holiday (Feb. 21), changing planes in the early evening (8 PM) at Miami International Airport. Scheduled time between flights is 80 minutes. I will have to go through Customs and immigration, and am a U.S. citizen. Is this enough time to be relaxed about not missing my connection? (It’s the last flight of the day for my destination.)

Response:

>I am returning from the Caribbean on the President’s Day holiday (Feb. > 21), changing planes in the early evening (8 PM) at Miami International > Airport. Scheduled time between flights is 80 minutes. I will have to > go through Customs and immigration, and am a U.S. citizen. > Is this enough time to be relaxed about not missing my connection? > (It’s the last flight of the day for my destination.)

If you were an EU Citizen arriving in the EU, then Immigration and Customs would normally take milliseconds. I have noticed, however, that even for American citizens, getting back into their own Country is sometimes a major undertaking so, if I were you, I wouldn’t be too relaxed about making the connection. JohnT

Response:

I am returning from the Caribbean on the President’s Day holiday (Feb. 21), changing planes in the early evening (8 PM) at Miami International Airport. Scheduled time between flights is 80 minutes. I will have to go through Customs and immigration, and am a U.S. citizen. Is this enough time to be relaxed about not missing my connection? (It’s the last flight of the day for my destination.)

Response:

>I am returning from the Caribbean on the President’s Day holiday (Feb. > 21), changing planes in the early evening (8 PM) at Miami International > Airport. Scheduled time between flights is 80 minutes. I will have to > go through Customs and immigration, and am a U.S. citizen. > Is this enough time to be relaxed about not missing my connection? > (It’s the last flight of the day for my destination.)

If you were an EU Citizen arriving in the EU, then Immigration and Customs would normally take milliseconds. I have noticed, however, that even for American citizens, getting back into their own Country is sometimes a major undertaking so, if I were you, I wouldn’t be too relaxed about making the connection. JohnT

Response:

Question:

As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for many living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries as far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to www.redcross.org and make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief Fund. It’s easy, and tax deducible.

Response:

> As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for many > living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries as > far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the > shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and > millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse > than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. > If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to www.redcross.org > and > make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief Fund. > It’s easy, and tax deducible.

Kick in a few bucks for me, I got gear to buy

Response:

> As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for many > living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries as > far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the > shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and > millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse > than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. > If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to www.redcross.org > and > make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief Fund. > It’s easy, and tax deducible.

It’s a helluva bad thing. Of course, the UN is already making noises about how the USA isn’t doing enough.  And – mark my words – you’ll see the UN or some other pile of useless leftoid turds busily figuring out how to blame Uncle Sam for the disaster – global warming, sucking too much oil out of the ground, invading Iraq, Haliburton, GWB, Skull and Bones, you name it.  It *never* fails. What I’d like to know is this:  why didn’t the commercial broadcast outlets (shortwave, satellite TV, etc.) get the word out?  There was a two hour lag time between the quake and the tsunami. Where was Al Jazeera? BTW, Fox reports the death toll has passed 60,000.  Damn. OK, the atheists can now commence dissing God for "allowing this to happen."  (See if they don’t.) I’ll send what I can. Lord Valve American

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for many > living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries as > far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the > shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and > millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse > than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. > If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to www.redcross.org > and > make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief Fund. > It’s easy, and tax deducible. >It’s a helluva bad thing. >Of course, the UN is already making noises about how the >USA isn’t doing enough.

Where was the UN and the rest of the world when Florida got slammed by 4 hurricanes? >  And – mark my words – you’ll see >the UN or some other pile of useless leftoid turds busily figuring >out how to blame Uncle Sam for the disaster – global warming, >sucking too much oil out of the ground, invading Iraq, Haliburton, >GWB, Skull and Bones, you name it.  It *never* fails. >What I’d like to know is this:  why didn’t the commercial broadcast >outlets (shortwave, satellite TV, etc.) get the word out?  There >was a two hour lag time between the quake and the tsunami.

IIRC, Fox News carried the broadcast about the quake right afterwards.  The problem is, places that were going to be affected don’t carry Fox News on the general airwaves, and IIRC, most of the households in Thailand either were without TV or didn’t have much in the way of cable or satellite.  Hotels probably did, but who wants to sit around and watch the news while on vacation in Thailand?  Not so sure about India, but it’s doubtful they weren’t much more advanced in the way of entertainment and news telecommunications, just like in Thailand. >Where was Al Jazeera? >BTW, Fox reports the death toll has passed 60,000.  Damn. >OK, the atheists can now commence dissing God for "allowing >this to happen."  (See if they don’t.) >I’ll send what I can. >Lord Valve >American

I can’t send much as far as money is concerned … know of anybody who wants a body to help?  I got time … Lostpup198 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." — Lou Erickson

Response:

> As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for many > living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries as > far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the > shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and > millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse > than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. > If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to www.redcross.org > and > make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief Fund. > It’s easy, and tax deducible.

Good idea. The people of those countries will be grateful. For those with better contacts, the money will be sent to people who know exactly where it is needed and can get things done. Thank you. John

Response:

> What I’d like to know is this:  why didn’t the commercial broadcast > outlets (shortwave, satellite TV, etc.) get the word out?  There > was a two hour lag time between the quake and the tsunami. > Where was Al Jazeera?

Not sure how much good that would have done. I’m not certain but I would guess that it would eat up most of those 2 hours getting word about the magnitude of the quake from whatever earthquake centers there are in the area to the media. A tsunami warning system would have worked. A pressure sensor in deep water on the ocean floor tethered to a float on the surface with a way to get data to shore. Ordinary surface waves won’t affect the sensor since they are too short to be affected by the seafloor in that water depth. Tsunamis are much much longer, and their passage over the sensor would register a deviation from ordinary hydrostatic pressure. Pipe that signal to shore and sound the alarm. Hawaii has one, IIRC. JMK

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->x-no-archive: yes >>What I’d like to know is this:  why didn’t the commercial broadcast >>outlets (shortwave, satellite TV, etc.) get the word out?  There >>was a two hour lag time between the quake and the tsunami. >>Where was Al Jazeera? > Not sure how much good that would have done. I’m not certain but I > would guess that it would eat up most of those 2 hours getting word > about the magnitude of the quake from whatever earthquake centers there > are in the area to the media. > A tsunami warning system would have worked. A pressure sensor in deep > water on the ocean floor tethered to a float on the surface with a way > to > get data to shore. Ordinary surface waves won’t affect the sensor since > they are too short to be affected by the seafloor in that water depth. > Tsunamis are much much longer, and their passage over the sensor would > register a deviation from ordinary hydrostatic pressure. Pipe that > signal > to shore and sound the alarm. > Hawaii has one, IIRC. > JMK >Hang time for evacuation in the last round of Florida >hurricanes was one to two days, with everybody >having cars and good roads. >Two hours is just about enough time to place your head >firmly between your knees…

Which is why I worked through them rather than leave town. Well, except for the first which was supposed to hit us dead on, then turned.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for many > living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries as > far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the > shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and > millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse > than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. > If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to www.redcross.org > and > make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief Fund. > It’s easy, and tax deducible. > Good idea. The people of those countries will be grateful. > For those with better contacts, the money will be sent to people who > know exactly where it is needed and can get things done. > Thank you. > John

$0.91 of every $1.00 contributed to the IRC goes directly towards the relief it is intended for.  Less than 10% goes to ‘overhead’. The volunteer-to-paid worker ration is 36/1.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for many > living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries as > far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the > shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and > millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse > than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. > If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to www.redcross.org > and > make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief Fund. > It’s easy, and tax deducible. > It’s a helluva bad thing. > Of course, the UN is already making noises about how the > USA isn’t doing enough.  And – mark my words – you’ll see > the UN or some other pile of useless leftoid turds busily figuring > out how to blame Uncle Sam for the disaster – global warming, > sucking too much oil out of the ground, invading Iraq, Haliburton, > GWB, Skull and Bones, you name it.  It *never* fails.

It’s already started…that "discussion" occurred on H&C this evening

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for many > living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries as > far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the > shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and > millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse > than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. > If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to www.redcross.org > and > make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief Fund. > It’s easy, and tax deducible. > Kick in a few bucks for me, I got gear to buy

OK. I understand your financial situation, and how much 5.00 means to you. Gift Information Amount: $5.00 Donation Fund: International Response Fund Honor/Memorial Gift: Yes Your gift to the American Red Cross International Response Fund allows us to respond to people`s needs around the globe…from sudden onset disasters to conflict situations, to long-term humanitarian crises affecting health, sanitation, and displacement of people. It`s because of the International Response Fund that our help can be immediate regardless of the type of disaster, or its location. Contact Information Name: Mr. Carl  Fiadino Company: Address: 666 Gearslut Lane City, State Zip: Long Island,  NY Country:  US Honor / Memorial Information Gift Type:  In Honor of  Carl`s G.A.S. Credit Card Information Name: Patrick Collen Address: 271 XXXXXX Circle, SE City, State Zip: Palm Bay,  FL  32909 Credit Card Number: 60XX XXXX XXXX 8591

Response:

> It’s already started…that "discussion" occurred on H&C this evening

Yeah, like the "war on Christmas," uh-huh. At least I no longer ask what kind of idiots believe this shit — they post here non-stop. .

Response:

http://staff.aist.go.jp/kenji.satake/animation.gif animation of wave path For those who think it doesn’t affect us, consider the speed with which disease travels on a jet plane. Coming out of the East, the Black Death reached the shores of Italy in the spring of 1348 unleashing a rampage of death across Europe unprecedented in recorded history. By the time the epidemic played itself out three years later, anywhere between 25% and 50% of Europe’s population had fallen victim. So don’t think this disaster doesn’t matter here at home.

Response:

@tornado.tampabay.rr.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A tsunami warning system would have worked. A pressure sensor in deep > water on the ocean floor tethered to a float on the surface with a way > to > get data to shore. Ordinary surface waves won’t affect the sensor since > they are too short to be affected by the seafloor in that water depth. > Tsunamis are much much longer, and their passage over the sensor would > register a deviation from ordinary hydrostatic pressure. Pipe that > signal > to shore and sound the alarm. > Hawaii has one, IIRC. > JMK > Hang time for evacuation in the last round of Florida > hurricanes was one to two days, with everybody > having cars and good roads. > Two hours is just about enough time to place your head > firmly between your knees… > — > Les Cargill

True, but you can run to higher ground in two hours provided your kids can run and you don’t bother with grabbing Grandma’s pictures. A hurricane bothers the inland folks a lot more than a tsunami. JMK

Response:

That wave travels at speeds of 500 mph. How far is it from the fault to the various coasts? Not much time to warn anyone. A small story about the Masai tribe, that heard about the disaster a little late, and brought the American ambassador in Kenya a herd of cows as an aid donation: http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/news/nation/3389844.htm The United States’ overall foreign aid commitment is around 0.2 percent of its gross national product. In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands (pop. 16.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001-almost a third of what America contributed. So when you compare the percentage of GNP that a country gives, you’ll see we aren’t as generous as you’d like us to think. I think it’s only fair to compare population to GNP to dollars.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > x-no-archive: yes >>What I’d like to know is this:  why didn’t the commercial broadcast >>outlets (shortwave, satellite TV, etc.) get the word out?  There >>was a two hour lag time between the quake and the tsunami. >>Where was Al Jazeera? > Not sure how much good that would have done. I’m not certain but I > would guess that it would eat up most of those 2 hours getting word > about the magnitude of the quake from whatever earthquake centers there > are in the area to the media. > A tsunami warning system would have worked. A pressure sensor in deep > water on the ocean floor tethered to a float on the surface with a way > to > get data to shore. Ordinary surface waves won’t affect the sensor since > they are too short to be affected by the seafloor in that water depth. > Tsunamis are much much longer, and their passage over the sensor would > register a deviation from ordinary hydrostatic pressure. Pipe that > signal > to shore and sound the alarm. > Hawaii has one, IIRC. > JMK > Hang time for evacuation in the last round of Florida > hurricanes was one to two days, with everybody > having cars and good roads. > Two hours is just about enough time to place your head > firmly between your knees…

Nonsense. You can *walk* out of tsunami range in less than half an hour. LV

Response:

> It’s a helluva bad thing.

"OK, now back to MY agenda." > Of course, the UN is already making noises about how the > USA isn’t doing enough.

They aren’t. >And – mark my words – you’ll see > the UN or some other pile of useless leftoid turds busily figuring > out how to blame Uncle Sam for the disaster – global warming, > sucking too much oil out of the ground, invading Iraq, Haliburton, > GWB, Skull and Bones, you name it.  It *never* fails.

Sounds serious, Lord…. > What I’d like to know is this:  why didn’t the commercial broadcast > outlets (shortwave, satellite TV, etc.) get the word out?

Wave mechanics. >There was a two hour lag time between the quake and the tsunami.

So we read. > Where was Al Jazeera? > BTW, Fox reports the death toll has passed 60,000.  Damn. > OK, the atheists can now commence dissing God for "allowing > this to happen."  (See if they don’t.)

God is always relevant. > I’ll send what I can.

We know that already. > Lord Valve > American

Safe from tsunami. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

"Lord Valve"  wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archive: yes > >>What I’d like to know is this:  why didn’t the commercial broadcast > >>outlets (shortwave, satellite TV, etc.) get the word out?  There > >>was a two hour lag time between the quake and the tsunami. > >>Where was Al Jazeera? > > Not sure how much good that would have done. I’m not certain but I > > would guess that it would eat up most of those 2 hours getting word > > about the magnitude of the quake from whatever earthquake centers there > > are in the area to the media. > > A tsunami warning system would have worked. A pressure sensor in deep > > water on the ocean floor tethered to a float on the surface with a way > > to > > get data to shore. Ordinary surface waves won’t affect the sensor since > > they are too short to be affected by the seafloor in that water depth. > > Tsunamis are much much longer, and their passage over the sensor would > > register a deviation from ordinary hydrostatic pressure. Pipe that > > signal > > to shore and sound the alarm. > > Hawaii has one, IIRC. > > JMK > Hang time for evacuation in the last round of Florida > hurricanes was one to two days, with everybody > having cars and good roads. > Two hours is just about enough time to place your head > firmly between your knees… > Nonsense. > You can *walk* out of tsunami range in less than half an hour.

Very true.  It was reported that many could have walked to safety in 15 minutes or less had they been warned.  The problem is that you just can’t send out a warning using the Emergency Broadcast System in third-world countries were the masses don’t have television or radio.  At least that would have been a problem for many of those affected. Lee D

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > That wave travels at speeds of 500 mph. How far is it from the fault to > the various coasts? Not much time to warn anyone. > A small story about the Masai tribe, that heard about the disaster a > little late, and brought the American ambassador in Kenya a herd of > cows as an aid donation: > http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/news/nation/3389844.htm > The United States’ overall foreign aid commitment is around 0.2 percent > of its gross national product. > In 2001, the United States gave $10.9 billion, Japan $9.7 billion, > Germany $4.9 billion, the United Kingdom $4.7 billion, and France $4.3 > billion. As a percentage of GNP, however, the top donors were Denmark, > Norway, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Sweden. The tiny Netherlands > (pop. 16.3 million) gave $3.2 billion in 2001-almost a third of what > America contributed. So when you compare the percentage of GNP that a > country gives, you’ll see we aren’t as generous as you’d like us to > think. I think it’s only fair to compare population to GNP to dollars.

Zoots…  is that US aid figure ONLY the Govt granted aid..??  or ALL aid sent by the US including ALL the NGOs…??? BTW… where is Russia and China on this list.. ? ?  How about the OPEC members… ? ? Totally disagree about the comparison based on GNP… your leaving out   the per capita disposable income, and the effects on population size on the comparison. And all sorts of other tax/govt issues involved… But, you’re just cutting and pasting this stuff…  must seem *right* to you. For instance, if you are a needy country, who do you want sending you aid…  the US sending a tiny fraction of our GNP that might equal 100 million….??, or a small country sending a larger portion of their GNP equaling 1 million… ? ? ??   What if you only "need" 50 million…? ? ?  Should the US send the 100 mil anyway.. ? ? ? As for "aid"…  govts around the world seem to more and more expect the "world" to provide a form of "insurance" to make everyone "whole" again after disasters strike.  Interesting trend…. CNN was reporting that some country was willing to accept "Money" aid from Israel, but not personel on the ground from Israel.  Hmmmmm….. gtski

Response:

> OK, the atheists can now commence dissing God for "allowing > this to happen."  (See if they don’t.)

Which "god" do you mean? Many of the affected people are Hindu, they have plenty to choose from, but the Hindus I know aren’t taking this as personally as you would if this happened to you. there is Buddhism all over the region. Both take a "long view", with this life just one battle in the struggle to let Dharma (good works) win over Karma (fate). The Maldives are a Muslim territory, for what it’s worth. Christians are a small minority in that whole region. Do you think atheists will make any appeals, positive or negative, to /any/ "gods"? If they do, are they actually atheists, then? I would say the only relevant "god" here is Mother Nature, who just farted and scratched her ass. Nothing personal. No point blaming anyone except those who neglected to install an early warning infrastructure. — stereoroid dublin, ireland "Politics are for the moment. An equation is for eternity."  – Albert Einstein, 1955

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for > many living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other > coutries as far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal > waves hit the shores of those countries. The death toll is going to > exceed 50,000 and millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders > of magnitude worse than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida > this past fall. > If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to > www.redcross.org and > make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief > Fund. It’s easy, and tax deducible. > It’s a helluva bad thing. > Of course, the UN is already making noises about how the USA isn’t doing > enough.  And – mark my words – you’ll see the UN or some other pile of > useless leftoid turds busily figuring out how to blame Uncle Sam for the > disaster – global warming, sucking too much oil out of the ground, > invading Iraq, Haliburton, GWB, Skull and Bones, you name it.  It *never* > fails.

Right. And I’m sure Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Riley will be preaching to the masses that this is all Clintons fault… What’s the difference? > Lord Valve > American

– Cheers! http://www.subatomicblues.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK, the atheists can now commence dissing God for > "allowing > this to happen."  (See if they don’t.) > Which "god" do you mean? Many of the affected people are > Hindu, they have > plenty to choose from, but the Hindus I know aren’t taking > this as > personally as you would if this happened to you. there is > Buddhism all > over the region. Both take a "long view", with this life > just one battle > in the struggle to let Dharma (good works) win over Karma > (fate). > The Maldives are a Muslim territory, for what it’s worth. > Christians are > a small minority in that whole region. > Do you think atheists will make any appeals, positive or > negative, to > /any/ "gods"? If they do, are they actually atheists, > then? > I would say the only relevant "god" here is Mother Nature, > who just > farted and scratched her ass. Nothing personal. No point > blaming anyone > except those who neglected to install an early warning > infrastructure. > — > stereoroid > dublin, ireland > "Politics are for the moment. An equation is for > eternity." > — Albert Einstein, 1955

Indonesia is mostly Muslim, as is much of lower Thailand and various other countries in the region. This could explain the alleged hesitation in providing the normally massive amount of relief funds by the West. We shall see. Would you feed and clothe your sworn enemy? This is a rhetorical question for those with the "heal them anyway" philosophy. I wouldn’t. This attitude and the expected "turning the other cheek" philosophy are my biggest qualms with conventional Christianity. Yeah, I know. This makes me a spiritual retard. So be it. I think every human life is precious – except the ones that are out to slit our throats, lop off our heads, blow up our airplanes/buildings, demolish our economy and bury our civilization. Did I forget anything? You have to draw a line somewhere. There is my line. Ed Cregger

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>As you are probably now aware, Christmas turned into a nightmare for > many >>living in, and visiting, Indonesia, India, Thailand, and other coutries > as >>far away as Somalia in Africa,  when the series of  tidal waves hit the >>shores of those countries. The death toll is going to exceed 50,000 and >>millions are now homeless.  This is a disaster orders of magnitude worse >>than the barrage of hurricanes that battered Florida this past fall. >>If you are at all financially able to do so, please go to > www.redcross.org >>and >>make whatever donation you can to the International Disaster Relief > Fund. >>It’s easy, and tax deducible. >Good idea. The people of those countries will be grateful. >For those with better contacts, the money will be sent to people who >know exactly where it is needed and can get things done. >Thank you. >John > $0.91 of every $1.00 contributed to the IRC goes directly towards the relief > it is intended for.  Less than 10% goes to ‘overhead’. The volunteer-to-paid > worker ration is 36/1.

That’s very commendable. Now if they could improve that ratio they might get close to what others can do. John

Response:

> Indonesia is mostly Muslim, as is much of lower Thailand and > various other countries in the region. This could explain > the alleged hesitation in providing the normally massive > amount of relief funds by the West. We shall see. > Would you feed and clothe your sworn enemy?

By all accounts, Indonesia’s Muslim population is primarily moderate. Since Suharto’s departure they have generally sought a peaceful relationship with the West, radicals aside. > Yeah, I know. This makes me a spiritual retard. So be it.

No. Your brush is just too broad. > You have to draw a line somewhere. There is my line.

Pity. JMK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > "Lord Valve"  wrote >> x-no-archive: yes >> >>What I’d like to know is this:  why didn’t the commercial broadcast >> >>outlets (shortwave, satellite TV, etc.) get the word out?  There >> >>was a two hour lag time between the quake and the tsunami. >> >>Where was Al Jazeera? >> > Not sure how much good that would have done. I’m not certain but I >> > would guess that it would eat up most of those 2 hours getting word >> > about the magnitude of the quake from whatever earthquake centers there >> > are in the area to the media. >> > A tsunami warning system would have worked. A pressure sensor in deep >> > water on the ocean floor tethered to a float on the surface with a way >> > to >> > get data to shore. Ordinary surface waves won’t affect the sensor since >> > they are too short to be affected by the seafloor in that water depth. >> > Tsunamis are much much longer, and their passage over the sensor would >> > register a deviation from ordinary hydrostatic pressure. Pipe that >> > signal >> > to shore and sound the alarm. >> > Hawaii has one, IIRC. >> > JMK >> Hang time for evacuation in the last round of Florida >> hurricanes was one to two days, with everybody >> having cars and good roads. >> Two hours is just about enough time to place your head >> firmly between your knees… > Nonsense. > You can *walk* out of tsunami range in less than half an hour. > Very true.  It was reported that many could have walked to safety in 15 > minutes or less had they been warned.  The problem is that you just can’t > send out a warning using the Emergency Broadcast System in third-world > countries were the masses don’t have television or radio.  At least that > would have been a problem for many of those affected. > Lee D

You’d be hard pressed to find people *anywhere* who aren’t    within 20 feet of a cheap-ass portable radio.  Word of mouth would do it from there.  Commercial music stations could have told everyone to head for the hills. LV

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Indonesia is mostly Muslim, as is much of lower Thailand > and > various other countries in the region. This could explain > the alleged hesitation in providing the normally massive > amount of relief funds by the West. We shall see. > Would you feed and clothe your sworn enemy? > By all accounts, Indonesia’s Muslim population is > primarily moderate. > Since Suharto’s departure they have generally sought a > peaceful > relationship with the West, radicals aside. > Yeah, I know. This makes me a spiritual retard. So be it. > No. Your brush is just too broad. > You have to draw a line somewhere. There is my line. > Pity. > JMK

If the moderate Muslims are truly moderate, why don’t they imprison the troublemakers instead of secretly supporting them spiritually and financially? Let’s stop the pretense. Ed Cregger

Response:

Question:

Hi Everyone, I received this press release from Celebrity Cruises and thought it would be of interest.  If you have missed any of my news’ postings, they are available on my web site.   Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com Celebrity Cruises Deploys Fourth Ship to Europe Century to Join Constellation, Galaxy and Millennium in Response to Guest                                     Demand MIAMI, Dec. 21 Steadily increasing demand for Celebrity Cruises’ vacation experiences in Europe has led the top-rated premium line to deploy a fourth ship to the region in 2005. The 1,750-guest Century, previously scheduled to sail 9- and 10-night Caribbean cruises next spring and summer, will join Celebrity’s Constellation, Galaxy and Millennium in Europe, offering vacationers the greatest capacity and broadest array of options Celebrity has offered to-date in Northern Europe and the Mediterranean. Following a 14-night transatlantic cruise departing from Fort Lauderdale on May 7, Century will sail a series of 12-night Baltic cruises roundtrip from Amsterdam, a unique Norwegian Fjords cruise, and 10- and 11-night Mediterranean cruises, before returning to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., departing roundtrip on alternating 9- and 10-night Caribbean cruises. The new European sailings open for booking January 4, 2005. "We’ve enjoyed offering a year-round option in the Caribbean with Century, but our guests’ demand for more Celebrity vacation options in Europe can’t be ignored," said Celebrity Cruises President & COO Jack Williams. The sheer value of a Celebrity vacation also can’t be ignored. As the U.S. dollar continues to decline against the euro, a growing number of savvy travelers are honing in on cruising as the definitive way to experience Europe. "Celebrity Cruises has always represented incredible value, and next year, particularly compared with traditional land-based vacations in Europe, it’s absolutely incomparable," said Williams. "There’s the convenience factor as well. You unpack once, and your premium hotel moves with you, from one magnificent port to the next." Williams tagged Century "the obvious choice" for the fourth ship to sail in Europe next year. The ship was the first in the Celebrity fleet to sail in the region when the line launched regular service there in 1999. The sophistication of Europe is echoed in Century’s onboard experience, featuring the fresh, gourmet cuisine of renowned Master Chef Michel Roux; the stylish Cova Cafe Milano, Celebrity’s seagoing version of the chic coffeehouse in the fashion district of Milan; the exotic AquaSpa(R) by Elemis, and a host of sumptuous services and amenities, including Les Clefs d’Or-certified Concierges, expertly trained Sommeliers, and 24-hour butler service in every suite. Century’s 2005 Europe Itineraries Century sets sail for Europe on a 14-night transatlantic cruise departing Fort Lauderdale, Fla., on May 7, with an overnight visit to King’s Wharf, Bermuda, and calls on Lisbon, Portugal; Vigo, Spain; and LeHavre (for Paris), France, concluding in Amsterdam. From Amsterdam, Century presents roundtrip 12-night Baltic cruises on May 21; June 2, 14 and 26; July 8 and 20, with calls on Copenhagen, Denmark (overnight); Oslo, Norway; Stockholm, Sweden; Helsinki, Finland; St. Petersburg, Russia (overnight), and Tallinn, Estonia. On August 13, guests have the unique opportunity to experience the stunning Norwegian Fjords in Celebrity style, when Century departs roundtrip from Amsterdam on a 7-night cruise calling on Bergen, Olden, Alesund, and Flam, Norway. Century sets sail August 20 on a repositioning cruise, featuring visits to an extraordinary series of classic ports, including Zeebrugge (for Brussels), Belgium; LeHavre (for Paris), France; Vigo, Cadiz and Malaga, Spain; Lisbon, Portugal; Civitavecchia (for Rome) and Livorno (for Florence/Pisa), Italy; and Villefranche (for Nice/Monte Carlo), France, concluding in Barcelona, Spain. The beauty of the Balearic Islands — and Celebrity’s first calls on both Ibiza and Valencia, Spain — await guests on Century’s September 2 and 23 sailings, also calling on Marseilles/Provence and Villefranche (for Nice/Monte Carlo), France; Livorno (for Florence/Pisa) and Civitavecchia (for Rome), Italy; and Palma de Mallorca, Spain. Century caps her European season in 2005 with two cruises in the Tyrrhenian Sea, departing Barcelona September 12 and October 3, and marking Celebrity’s first calls on Palermo, Sicily and Cartagena, Spain. The cruises also feature calls on Ajaccio, Corsica, France; Civitavecchia (for Rome), Naples, Italy; Valletta, Malta, and Messina, Sicily. Century heads westward on October 14, departing Barcelona on a 15-night transatlantic voyage, with calls on Marseille/Provence and Villefranche (for Nice/Monte Carlo), France; Civitavecchia (for Rome), Italy; Malaga, Spain; Ponta Delgada, Azores; and Nassau, Bahamas, ending in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. There, Century resumes her Caribbean season, offering roundtrip exotic 9- and 10-night vacations. Fares for oceanview accommodations on Century’s 12-night Northern Europe cruises begin at $2,140 per person, based on double occupancy. Fares for oceanview accommodations on Century’s Mediterranean sailings start at $1,690 per person, based on double occupancy. Celebrity has established special toll-free numbers to reaccommodate guests booked on Century’s Caribbean cruises affected by the new European sailings. Guests with individual bookings are asked to call 1-888-837-5676. Groups are asked to call 1-888-305-4549. Celebrity Cruises is the industry’s highest-rated premium cruise brand with a taste of luxury. The cruise line has 10 ships in its fleet, which sails in Alaska, Bermuda, California, the Caribbean, Europe, Hawaii, the Mexican Riviera, the Panama Canal and South America. In addition, Celebrity Xpeditions offer exotic travel experiences in the Galapagos Islands, the Arctic, and Antarctica. For more information, call your travel agent.

Response:

Hi Ray, I understand that Celebrity will have no ships in the CAribbean during the summer, that seems strange? Donna TuesdayChat Host http://www.cruisemates.com

Response:

>I understand that Celebrity will have no ships in the CAribbean during the >summer, that seems strange?

Hi Donna, It is not strange nor unusual for a premium brand not to have a ship in the Caribbean in the summer.  Holland America and Princess have not had ships in the Caribbean every year.  The ships go where the demand is the highest and they can charge the highest per diems. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

This is a late announcement and that usually triggers some low rates to try to fill the ship.  A lot of people have already booked for 2005 since it takes a little more planning that the Caribbean.   May be worth keeping an eye on….

Response:

Hi Everyone, I received this press release from Celebrity Cruises and thought it would be of interest.  If you have missed any of my news’ postings, they are available on my web site.   Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com Celebrity Cruises Deploys Fourth Ship to Europe Century to Join Constellation, Galaxy and Millennium in Response to Guest                                     Demand MIAMI, Dec. 21 Steadily increasing demand for Celebrity Cruises’ vacation experiences in Europe has led the top-rated premium line to deploy a fourth ship to the region in 2005. The 1,750-guest Century, previously scheduled to sail 9- and 10-night Caribbean cruises next spring and summer, will join Celebrity’s Constellation, Galaxy and Millennium in Europe, offering vacationers the greatest capacity and broadest array of options Celebrity has offered to-date in Northern Europe and the Mediterranean. Following a 14-night transatlantic cruise departing from Fort Lauderdale on May 7, Century will sail a series of 12-night Baltic cruises roundtrip from Amsterdam, a unique Norwegian Fjords cruise, and 10- and 11-night Mediterranean cruises, before returning to Fort Lauderdale, Fla., departing roundtrip on alternating 9- and 10-night Caribbean cruises. The new European sailings open for booking January 4, 2005. "We’ve enjoyed offering a year-round option in the Caribbean with Century, but our guests’ demand for more Celebrity vacation options in Europe can’t be ignored," said Celebrity Cruises President & COO Jack Williams. The sheer value of a Celebrity vacation also can’t be ignored. As the U.S. dollar continues to decline against the euro, a growing number of savvy travelers are honing in on cruising as the definitive way to experience Europe. "Celebrity Cruises has always represented incredible value, and next year, particularly compared with traditional land-based vacations in Europe, it’s absolutely incomparable," said Williams. "There’s the convenience factor as well. You unpack once, and your premium hotel moves with you, from one magnificent port to the next." Williams tagged Century "the obvious choice" for the fourth ship to sail in Europe next year. The ship was the first in the Celebrity fleet to sail in the region when the line launched regular service there in 1999. The sophistication of Europe is echoed in Century’s onboard experience, featuring the fresh, gourmet cuisine of renowned Master Chef Michel Roux; the stylish Cova Cafe Milano, Celebrity’s seagoing version of the chic coffeehouse in the fashion district of Milan; the exotic AquaSpa(R) by Elemis, and a host of sumptuous services and amenities, including Les Clefs d’Or-certified Concierges, expertly trained Sommeliers, and 24-hour butler service in every suite. Century’s 2005 Europe Itineraries Century sets sail for Europe on a 14-night transatlantic cruise departing Fort Lauderdale, Fla., on May 7, with an overnight visit to King’s Wharf, Bermuda, and calls on Lisbon, Portugal; Vigo, Spain; and LeHavre (for Paris), France, concluding in Amsterdam. From Amsterdam, Century presents roundtrip 12-night Baltic cruises on May 21; June 2, 14 and 26; July 8 and 20, with calls on Copenhagen, Denmark (overnight); Oslo, Norway; Stockholm, Sweden; Helsinki, Finland; St. Petersburg, Russia (overnight), and Tallinn, Estonia. On August 13, guests have the unique opportunity to experience the stunning Norwegian Fjords in Celebrity style, when Century departs roundtrip from Amsterdam on a 7-night cruise calling on Bergen, Olden, Alesund, and Flam, Norway. Century sets sail August 20 on a repositioning cruise, featuring visits to an extraordinary series of classic ports, including Zeebrugge (for Brussels), Belgium; LeHavre (for Paris), France; Vigo, Cadiz and Malaga, Spain; Lisbon, Portugal; Civitavecchia (for Rome) and Livorno (for Florence/Pisa), Italy; and Villefranche (for Nice/Monte Carlo), France, concluding in Barcelona, Spain. The beauty of the Balearic Islands — and Celebrity’s first calls on both Ibiza and Valencia, Spain — await guests on Century’s September 2 and 23 sailings, also calling on Marseilles/Provence and Villefranche (for Nice/Monte Carlo), France; Livorno (for Florence/Pisa) and Civitavecchia (for Rome), Italy; and Palma de Mallorca, Spain. Century caps her European season in 2005 with two cruises in the Tyrrhenian Sea, departing Barcelona September 12 and October 3, and marking Celebrity’s first calls on Palermo, Sicily and Cartagena, Spain. The cruises also feature calls on Ajaccio, Corsica, France; Civitavecchia (for Rome), Naples, Italy; Valletta, Malta, and Messina, Sicily. Century heads westward on October 14, departing Barcelona on a 15-night transatlantic voyage, with calls on Marseille/Provence and Villefranche (for Nice/Monte Carlo), France; Civitavecchia (for Rome), Italy; Malaga, Spain; Ponta Delgada, Azores; and Nassau, Bahamas, ending in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. There, Century resumes her Caribbean season, offering roundtrip exotic 9- and 10-night vacations. Fares for oceanview accommodations on Century’s 12-night Northern Europe cruises begin at $2,140 per person, based on double occupancy. Fares for oceanview accommodations on Century’s Mediterranean sailings start at $1,690 per person, based on double occupancy. Celebrity has established special toll-free numbers to reaccommodate guests booked on Century’s Caribbean cruises affected by the new European sailings. Guests with individual bookings are asked to call 1-888-837-5676. Groups are asked to call 1-888-305-4549. Celebrity Cruises is the industry’s highest-rated premium cruise brand with a taste of luxury. The cruise line has 10 ships in its fleet, which sails in Alaska, Bermuda, California, the Caribbean, Europe, Hawaii, the Mexican Riviera, the Panama Canal and South America. In addition, Celebrity Xpeditions offer exotic travel experiences in the Galapagos Islands, the Arctic, and Antarctica. For more information, call your travel agent.

Response:

Hi Ray, I understand that Celebrity will have no ships in the CAribbean during the summer, that seems strange? Donna TuesdayChat Host http://www.cruisemates.com

Response:

>I understand that Celebrity will have no ships in the CAribbean during the >summer, that seems strange?

Hi Donna, It is not strange nor unusual for a premium brand not to have a ship in the Caribbean in the summer.  Holland America and Princess have not had ships in the Caribbean every year.  The ships go where the demand is the highest and they can charge the highest per diems. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

Response:

This is a late announcement and that usually triggers some low rates to try to fill the ship.  A lot of people have already booked for 2005 since it takes a little more planning that the Caribbean.   May be worth keeping an eye on….

Response:

Question:

writings: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Judd, do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you simply a >despicable troll…wait, I know…BOTH! >And, to all that might just be reading this thread for the first time, Judd >Williams (if that’s his real name) hijacked the original subject line.  My >original subject line read, "Caribbean Cruise: Looking for Vanilla Beans". >My two posts to this thread are below.  Some people feel the need to go >around bashing others to feel good about themselves.  jsmith/Judd Williams >is one of them.  His mean spirited posts can be found all over usenet. >Message #1 We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand >Cayman. >Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck >fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these >cities?  Thanks, >Monica >Message #2 The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the >Internet) have >been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. >Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure >hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. >Monica >Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as >you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are >smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people >like you!!! >>The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have >>been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. >>Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure >>hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. >>Monica

Monica the best Vanilla doesn’t come from the Caribbean.  It comes from an island off Africa.  Singapore and Brazil are other sources.  Why go to all this trouble when there are online importers who can get you a good price for quality Vanilla hassle free? —  To  email me, Edit "xt" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

Have you tried Penzey’s for your vanilla beans? Vanilla beans aren’t cheap, but Penzey’s really sells top notch spices, so at least you’ll be getting quality beans from them.  www. penzeys.com Lee

Response:

Judd, do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you simply a despicable troll…wait, I know…BOTH! And, to all that might just be reading this thread for the first time, Judd Williams (if that’s his real name) hijacked the original subject line.  My original subject line read, "Caribbean Cruise: Looking for Vanilla Beans". My two posts to this thread are below.  Some people feel the need to go around bashing others to feel good about themselves.  jsmith/Judd Williams is one of them.  His mean spirited posts can be found all over usenet. Message #1 We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand Cayman. Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these cities?  Thanks, Monica Message #2 The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. Monica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as > you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are > smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people > like you!!! > The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have > been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. > Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure > hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. > Monica

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >writings: >Judd, do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you simply a >despicable troll…wait, I know…BOTH! >And, to all that might just be reading this thread for the first time, Judd >Williams (if that’s his real name) hijacked the original subject line.  My >original subject line read, "Caribbean Cruise: Looking for Vanilla Beans". >My two posts to this thread are below.  Some people feel the need to go >around bashing others to feel good about themselves.  jsmith/Judd Williams >is one of them.  His mean spirited posts can be found all over usenet. >Message #1 We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand >Cayman. >Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck >fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these >cities?  Thanks, >Monica >Message #2 The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the >Internet) have >been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. >Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure >hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. >Monica >>Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as >>you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are >>smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people >>like you!!! >>>The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have >>>been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. >>>Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure >>>hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. >>>Monica >Monica the best Vanilla doesn’t come from the Caribbean.  It comes from >an island off Africa.  Singapore and Brazil are other sources.  Why go >to all this trouble when there are online importers who can get you a >good price for quality Vanilla hassle free?

And the best cocoa comes from Cote’ de Ivorie (hope I spelt that correctly).  I’m stocking up on my favorite chocolates (the good stuff, 60% and up) before prices start to rise. — dillon "When the French are against it, you know we can’t be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

Response:

Hello Brian.  I have bought beans from the Internet.  Madagascar beans.  I think I paid $14 for 5 or 6 beans.  They had a really strange smell but used one anyway in an Emeril "cooked" vanilla icecream recipe.  OH MY!  It was out of this world  OK…so the beans smell funny, they’re OK.  Less than a month later, I retrieved another to find that they were all rock hard  The vanilla inside was dry as well.  Anyway, I thought I might be able to find fresher and less expensive beans on our trip.  Apparently it’s not legal to bring them back to the states tho I bought them from bostonvanillabeans.com Monica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Monica the best Vanilla doesn’t come from the Caribbean.  It comes from > an island off Africa.  Singapore and Brazil are other sources.  Why go > to all this trouble when there are online importers who can get you a > good price for quality Vanilla hassle free? > — >  To  email me, Edit "xt" from my email address. >   Brian M. Kochera >  "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!" >  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

Some years ago (when I don’t believe there were any restrictions), we bought some spices from one of the islands.  The products were neatly packaged in glass jars with stoppers. Unfortunately, after a few weeks, some little black thingies started crawling around in the jars!!  I assume that something hatched after we got the spices home. I  know that you pay more to buy stuff in the supermarket here.  But at least it has been zapped or otherwise rid of vermin. imd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as > you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are > smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people > like you!!! > The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have > been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. > Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure > hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. > Monica > > >>>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back > to > > >>>the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

Response:

TO: Monica—- Those vanilla beans will surely be the most expensive beans you have ever had once you try to smuggle them back to the US.. I truly hope they nail you for your illegal scheme!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I wonder if you can legally bring back whole beans through customs?? > Processed foods are ok, but plants or plant products are not.  Now before > the flamers strike, I understand that a package of Vanilla beans could be > easily hidden in bagage, but would it be legal?  You might want to check… > Just my 2 cents…. > Yes, that’s true.  The Vanilla bean I got I used in Cozumel (we had a self > catering apartment.) > — > Veendam Feb 03 West Carib > Zuiderdam Sept 03 West Carib > veendam Feb 04 West Carib > Zaandam Nov 04 West Carib > Westerdam  05 Eastern Carib > Veendam  05 South Carib > N2WJ 10-80M, CW, QRP/CW, QRPp/CW, and SSB for New DX lol > — > Julie > Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at > http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

Response:

The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. Monica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to >>>the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

Response:

> I wonder if you can legally bring back whole beans through customs??   > Processed foods are ok, but plants or plant products are not.  Now before > the flamers strike, I understand that a package of Vanilla beans could be > easily hidden in bagage, but would it be legal?  You might want to check… > Just my 2 cents….

Yes, that’s true.  The Vanilla bean I got I used in Cozumel (we had a self catering apartment.) > — > Veendam Feb 03 West Carib > Zuiderdam Sept 03 West Carib > veendam Feb 04 West Carib > Zaandam Nov 04 West Carib > Westerdam  05 Eastern Carib > Veendam  05 South Carib > N2WJ 10-80M, CW, QRP/CW, QRPp/CW, and SSB for New DX lol

– Julie Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

Response:

Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people like you!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have > been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. > Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure > hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. > Monica > >>>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to > >>>the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

Response:

>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to >the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

Bringing into the US any food product or agricultural product from a foreign country is a HUGE no no.  Mega fines if you try to smuggle it in.  Worried about contamination, spreading disease. Licenced importers have certification to make sure proper chemicals and checks have been done for the food to be safe.

Response:

>>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to >the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

$3.95  for a 125ml bottle. >Bringing into the US any food product or agricultural product from a >foreign country is a HUGE no no.  Mega fines if you try to smuggle it >in.  Worried about contamination, spreading disease. >Licenced importers have certification to make sure proper chemicals >and checks have been done for the food to be safe.

Declared it and everything.  Prepackaged foods seem to be no problem. Or at least we didn’t get a squawk.  We brought back vanilla, mole and achiote. — dillon "When the French are against it, you know we can’t be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to >>the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey. > $3.95  for a 125ml bottle. >Bringing into the US any food product or agricultural product from a >foreign country is a HUGE no no.  Mega fines if you try to smuggle it >in.  Worried about contamination, spreading disease. >Licenced importers have certification to make sure proper chemicals >and checks have been done for the food to be safe. > Declared it and everything.  Prepackaged foods seem to be no problem. > Or at least we didn’t get a squawk.  We brought back vanilla, mole and > achiote.

— Veendam Feb 03 West Carib Zuiderdam Sept 03 West Carib veendam Feb 04 West Carib Zaandam Nov 04 West Carib Westerdam  05 Eastern Carib Veendam  05 South Carib N2WJ 10-80M, CW, QRP/CW, QRPp/CW, and SSB for New DX lol

Response:

DILLON: Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey. surfer e2468

Response:

We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand Cayman. Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these cities?  Thanks, Monica

Response:

>We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand Cayman. >Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck >fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these >cities?  Thanks, >Monica

I’ve seen vanilla all over Cozumel (picked some up last week for Christmas presents).  But not beans. — dillon "When the French are against it, you know we can’t be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

Response:

> We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand Cayman. > Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck > fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these > cities?  Thanks,

About eight blocks back from the ferry dock and Zocalo in San Miguel on Cozumel is the San Francesco Supermarket.  They had vanilla beans in 1999, which is the last time I was there. Julie — Julie Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

Response:

> We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand > Cayman. Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I > haven’t had any luck fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans > for sale in any of these cities?  Thanks, > Monica

I wonder if you can legally bring back whole beans through customs??   Processed foods are ok, but plants or plant products are not.  Now before the flamers strike, I understand that a package of Vanilla beans could be easily hidden in bagage, but would it be legal?  You might want to check… Just my 2 cents…. — Veendam Feb 03 West Carib Zuiderdam Sept 03 West Carib veendam Feb 04 West Carib Zaandam Nov 04 West Carib Westerdam  05 Eastern Carib Veendam  05 South Carib N2WJ 10-80M, CW, QRP/CW, QRPp/CW, and SSB for New DX lol

Response:

We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand Cayman. Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these cities?  Thanks, Monica

Response:

>We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand Cayman. >Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck >fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these >cities?  Thanks, >Monica

I’ve seen vanilla all over Cozumel (picked some up last week for Christmas presents).  But not beans. — dillon "When the French are against it, you know we can’t be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

Response:

> We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand Cayman. > Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck > fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these > cities?  Thanks,

About eight blocks back from the ferry dock and Zocalo in San Miguel on Cozumel is the San Francesco Supermarket.  They had vanilla beans in 1999, which is the last time I was there. Julie — Julie Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

Response:

> We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand > Cayman. Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I > haven’t had any luck fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans > for sale in any of these cities?  Thanks, > Monica

I wonder if you can legally bring back whole beans through customs??   Processed foods are ok, but plants or plant products are not.  Now before the flamers strike, I understand that a package of Vanilla beans could be easily hidden in bagage, but would it be legal?  You might want to check… Just my 2 cents…. — Veendam Feb 03 West Carib Zuiderdam Sept 03 West Carib veendam Feb 04 West Carib Zaandam Nov 04 West Carib Westerdam  05 Eastern Carib Veendam  05 South Carib N2WJ 10-80M, CW, QRP/CW, QRPp/CW, and SSB for New DX lol

Response:

DILLON: Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey. surfer e2468

Response:

>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to >the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

Bringing into the US any food product or agricultural product from a foreign country is a HUGE no no.  Mega fines if you try to smuggle it in.  Worried about contamination, spreading disease. Licenced importers have certification to make sure proper chemicals and checks have been done for the food to be safe.

Response:

>>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to >the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

$3.95  for a 125ml bottle. >Bringing into the US any food product or agricultural product from a >foreign country is a HUGE no no.  Mega fines if you try to smuggle it >in.  Worried about contamination, spreading disease. >Licenced importers have certification to make sure proper chemicals >and checks have been done for the food to be safe.

Declared it and everything.  Prepackaged foods seem to be no problem. Or at least we didn’t get a squawk.  We brought back vanilla, mole and achiote. — dillon "When the French are against it, you know we can’t be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to >>the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey. > $3.95  for a 125ml bottle. >Bringing into the US any food product or agricultural product from a >foreign country is a HUGE no no.  Mega fines if you try to smuggle it >in.  Worried about contamination, spreading disease. >Licenced importers have certification to make sure proper chemicals >and checks have been done for the food to be safe. > Declared it and everything.  Prepackaged foods seem to be no problem. > Or at least we didn’t get a squawk.  We brought back vanilla, mole and > achiote.

— Veendam Feb 03 West Carib Zuiderdam Sept 03 West Carib veendam Feb 04 West Carib Zaandam Nov 04 West Carib Westerdam  05 Eastern Carib Veendam  05 South Carib N2WJ 10-80M, CW, QRP/CW, QRPp/CW, and SSB for New DX lol

Response:

The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. Monica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to >>>the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

Response:

> I wonder if you can legally bring back whole beans through customs??   > Processed foods are ok, but plants or plant products are not.  Now before > the flamers strike, I understand that a package of Vanilla beans could be > easily hidden in bagage, but would it be legal?  You might want to check… > Just my 2 cents….

Yes, that’s true.  The Vanilla bean I got I used in Cozumel (we had a self catering apartment.) > — > Veendam Feb 03 West Carib > Zuiderdam Sept 03 West Carib > veendam Feb 04 West Carib > Zaandam Nov 04 West Carib > Westerdam  05 Eastern Carib > Veendam  05 South Carib > N2WJ 10-80M, CW, QRP/CW, QRPp/CW, and SSB for New DX lol

– Julie Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

Response:

Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people like you!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have > been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. > Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure > hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. > Monica > >>>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back to > >>>the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

Response:

TO: Monica—- Those vanilla beans will surely be the most expensive beans you have ever had once you try to smuggle them back to the US.. I truly hope they nail you for your illegal scheme!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I wonder if you can legally bring back whole beans through customs?? > Processed foods are ok, but plants or plant products are not.  Now before > the flamers strike, I understand that a package of Vanilla beans could be > easily hidden in bagage, but would it be legal?  You might want to check… > Just my 2 cents…. > Yes, that’s true.  The Vanilla bean I got I used in Cozumel (we had a self > catering apartment.) > — > Veendam Feb 03 West Carib > Zuiderdam Sept 03 West Carib > veendam Feb 04 West Carib > Zaandam Nov 04 West Carib > Westerdam  05 Eastern Carib > Veendam  05 South Carib > N2WJ 10-80M, CW, QRP/CW, QRPp/CW, and SSB for New DX lol > — > Julie > Check out my Travel Pages (non-commercial) at > http://www.dragonsholm.org/travel.htm

Response:

Some years ago (when I don’t believe there were any restrictions), we bought some spices from one of the islands.  The products were neatly packaged in glass jars with stoppers. Unfortunately, after a few weeks, some little black thingies started crawling around in the jars!!  I assume that something hatched after we got the spices home. I  know that you pay more to buy stuff in the supermarket here.  But at least it has been zapped or otherwise rid of vermin. imd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as > you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are > smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people > like you!!! > The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have > been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. > Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure > hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. > Monica > > >>>Was the vanilla very expensive,and were you allowed to bring it back > to > > >>>the states?    I know it is costly here in south jersey.

Response:

Judd, do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you simply a despicable troll…wait, I know…BOTH! And, to all that might just be reading this thread for the first time, Judd Williams (if that’s his real name) hijacked the original subject line.  My original subject line read, "Caribbean Cruise: Looking for Vanilla Beans". My two posts to this thread are below.  Some people feel the need to go around bashing others to feel good about themselves.  jsmith/Judd Williams is one of them.  His mean spirited posts can be found all over usenet. Message #1 We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand Cayman. Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these cities?  Thanks, Monica Message #2 The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. Monica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as > you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are > smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people > like you!!! > The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have > been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. > Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure > hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. > Monica

Response:

writings: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Judd, do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you simply a >despicable troll…wait, I know…BOTH! >And, to all that might just be reading this thread for the first time, Judd >Williams (if that’s his real name) hijacked the original subject line.  My >original subject line read, "Caribbean Cruise: Looking for Vanilla Beans". >My two posts to this thread are below.  Some people feel the need to go >around bashing others to feel good about themselves.  jsmith/Judd Williams >is one of them.  His mean spirited posts can be found all over usenet. >Message #1 We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand >Cayman. >Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck >fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these >cities?  Thanks, >Monica >Message #2 The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the >Internet) have >been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. >Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure >hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. >Monica >Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as >you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are >smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people >like you!!! >>The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have >>been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. >>Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure >>hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. >>Monica

Monica the best Vanilla doesn’t come from the Caribbean.  It comes from an island off Africa.  Singapore and Brazil are other sources.  Why go to all this trouble when there are online importers who can get you a good price for quality Vanilla hassle free? —  To  email me, Edit "xt" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

Hello Brian.  I have bought beans from the Internet.  Madagascar beans.  I think I paid $14 for 5 or 6 beans.  They had a really strange smell but used one anyway in an Emeril "cooked" vanilla icecream recipe.  OH MY!  It was out of this world  OK…so the beans smell funny, they’re OK.  Less than a month later, I retrieved another to find that they were all rock hard  The vanilla inside was dry as well.  Anyway, I thought I might be able to find fresher and less expensive beans on our trip.  Apparently it’s not legal to bring them back to the states tho I bought them from bostonvanillabeans.com Monica

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Monica the best Vanilla doesn’t come from the Caribbean.  It comes from > an island off Africa.  Singapore and Brazil are other sources.  Why go > to all this trouble when there are online importers who can get you a > good price for quality Vanilla hassle free? > — >  To  email me, Edit "xt" from my email address. >   Brian M. Kochera >  "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!" >  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >writings: >Judd, do you have a reading comprehension problem or are you simply a >despicable troll…wait, I know…BOTH! >And, to all that might just be reading this thread for the first time, Judd >Williams (if that’s his real name) hijacked the original subject line.  My >original subject line read, "Caribbean Cruise: Looking for Vanilla Beans". >My two posts to this thread are below.  Some people feel the need to go >around bashing others to feel good about themselves.  jsmith/Judd Williams >is one of them.  His mean spirited posts can be found all over usenet. >Message #1 We’ll be stopping in Cozumel, Belize City, Costa Maya and Grand >Cayman. >Vanilla beans are SO expensive here in the states and I haven’t had any luck >fining good ones.  Has anyone seen vanilla beans for sale in any of these >cities?  Thanks, >Monica >Message #2 The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the >Internet) have >been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. >Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure >hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. >Monica >>Will be interesting how long you keep those beans once you declare them as >>you re-enter the US. Or are you going to conceal the fact that you are >>smuggling illegal agricultural products into the US. We really need people >>like you!!! >>>The vanilla beans I’ve bought here in the states (via the Internet) have >>>been packaged in a plastic vial with a rubber stopper. >>>Dang!  I’ve got a few recipes that call for vanilla beans and was sure >>>hoping to be able to stock up while in the Caribbean. >>>Monica >Monica the best Vanilla doesn’t come from the Caribbean.  It comes from >an island off Africa.  Singapore and Brazil are other sources.  Why go >to all this trouble when there are online importers who can get you a >good price for quality Vanilla hassle free?

And the best cocoa comes from Cote’ de Ivorie (hope I spelt that correctly).  I’m stocking up on my favorite chocolates (the good stuff, 60% and up) before prices start to rise. — dillon "When the French are against it, you know we can’t be far wrong."  - Adm. Bobbie Ray Inman

Response:

Have you tried Penzey’s for your vanilla beans? Vanilla beans aren’t cheap, but Penzey’s really sells top notch spices, so at least you’ll be getting quality beans from them.  www. penzeys.com Lee

Response:

Question:

>> www.airgorilla.com  shows prices and itinerary, and I believe you > can book, too. > Except…(according to the airgorilla site) "Departure must begin in > USA/Canada" and the OP is in France. > cheers, > Henry

www.deckchair.com   will let you originate your flight in France. Check Multileg box for options Jan

Response:

Hi all, I’m planning a trip to South America (I’m from France). The best option for me would be to travel from France (wherever) to Buenos Aires, then 1 or 2 months later fly back to France from Lima (with no other flight in between) So far, only ebookers offers to travel to one place and return from another one. Do you have any other suggestions on the web to find good deals on this type of flights? Thanks, Jerome

Response:

First place I always try is www.itasoftware.com  shows prices and itinerary, but you cannot book at this site. www.airgorilla.com  shows prices and itinerary, and I believe you can book, too.

Response:

Question:

>>> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" >> moral >> beliefs, they should change their professions. >Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that. > Wrong. > A pharmacist is not doing his job if he refuses.

People can refuse to go to war inmatters of conscience. Any other profession can exert the same right to conscience in their practice. The people will not be subject to evil, overlording authorities who force them, in violation of their first amendment rights, to perform acts with which they disagree. Sorry, but you have no legal authority to force persons to perform acts which would infringe upon their First Amendment rights. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> Many insurance companies won’t pay for a drug until x number of > days have passed since you last filled the prescription.

I think all insurance companies have this restriction.  However, they usually allow refills a week early.  As I wrote before, fundamentalist pharmacists are clowns, but don’t wait until the last minute to allow these nuts to ruin your day. Pete

Response:

… >A better example of hysterical hyperbole could hardly be found. >All the woman had to do was phone her doctor and have the >prescription phoned into a different pharmacy.

Wrong on technical grounds. The point is that all of the above takes time and days could go by in the process.  You are aware, are you not, that you have to take one pill a day, every day, in order for it to work.  It is not as simple as "Don’t have a pill today? Then don’t have sex today."

Response:

>> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" > moral > beliefs, they should change their professions. >Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that.

Neither do you…and you don’t have a problem with pharmacists who refuse to do their jobs?   Why am I not surprised? —      www.chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php  (TCI’s 2004-05 Houston Aeros)

Response:

>>> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" >> moral beliefs, they should change their professions. > Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that. >What if a pharmacist believed that Christians shouldn’t get heart pills?

Well, that’s _different_.  (Don’t expect Johnny to get the point.) —      www.chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php  (TCI’s 2004-05 Houston Aeros)

Response:

> The woman should have been able to refill her scrip at *her* > convenience

Yes, I agree, but don’t add to the problem by waiting until the last second. > it is criminal that the offending pharmacists would not transfer the > prescription to another pharmacy to be filled.

No, I think not.  It is hardly a criminal offense. > placing that woman in a hopeless and desperate situation

A better example of hysterical hyperbole could hardly be found. All the woman had to do was phone her doctor and have the prescription phoned into a different pharmacy. > and I would hope that every woman who has been a victim > of such garbage sues the living daylights out of both the pharmacist > and the company fool enough to employ him or her

Under what theory?  Breach of contract?  Negligence?  Toxic torts?  I do not agree with fundamentalist pharmacists, but I suspect their actions are within the law, something you clearly do not under- stand. Pete

Response:

>>Druggists refuse to give out pill >By Charisse Jones, USA TODAY >The is just further proof that the anti-abortion agenda is really all >about punishing sex and nothing to do with saving any lives.  They >want nothing other than to control women’s sex lives.

You are right, of course, but it should be noted that it is not about controlling women’s sex lives as much as controlling women (and men), period. Which is, for better or worse, the primary function of goverment. Historically, the fear/threat of getting pregnant has been a primary force in controlling young people (of both sexes).  From the very beginning of the existence of the pill, there was widespread terror througout the various parental parts of society (i.e., parents, church, state) that the young uns would not longer be controllable. You have to understand that these people are trying very hard to put the genie back in the bottle.  And they may succeed.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at >the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay. > This woman was an idiot to wait until she was completely out of > pills to refill her prescription.  Do it at least a week early. > The solution to this situation is simple.  If a pharmacist refuses to > fill a prescription – whether for birth control, pain control, or any > other drug – see the manager and tell him/her that you will no > longer shop there, and have the spine to actually never set foot > in that store, no matter if it is inconvenient to do so. > We had censorship by the left not so long ago and now we have > it by the right.  What a country!  We should change the name of > our country to United States of Intolerant Americans. > Pete

Many insurance companies won’t pay for a drug until x number of days have passed since you last filled the prescription. I ran into this all the time with a medication I was taking. I had to wait practically until the last day and was not allowed to buy more than one month’s worth at a time. Guess the insurance company figured I could get run over by a truck or something and then they’d be out all that wasted money.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > stall: >>> She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at >>> the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay. >> This woman was an idiot to wait until she was completely out of >> pills to refill her prescription.  Do it at least a week early. > That has nothing to do with it.  The woman should have been able to > refill her scrip at *her* convenience, not in advance on the off > chance that some Jay-sus freak will have a problem with the medication > prescribed to her by her doctor. > I agree with that.  If a pharmacy is going to allow its pharmacists the > convenience of deciding not to fill a prescription on a whim, they need to > explicitly post notice of this somewhere.  That way people at least have a > chance to expect it.  Ah, but actually admitting to one’s own policies might > not > be in the best interests of dishonestly luring customers to one’s pharmacy…

The European view, or more specifically the French view is that certain activities are under license with the state and must provide the service the law requires. Buralists in France are licensed to sell things like stamps, metro tickets, cigarettes, phone cards etc. One buralist tried to charge extra for postage stamps which is illegal and this made the TV news. The same with pharmacists.  Their items are controlled in various fashions. The nice thing about French pharmacists is that the will provide free first aid. Once I cut my finger with a cutter and went next door and they poured hydrogen oxide on the wound, bandaged it and charged me for materials. My wife was once bitten by our dog (he was ill snapped at her) and got treatment in a pharmacy. They tell you to visit a doctor however usually one does not.  I was saw a man hit by a car and in a flash the pharmacists dashed out of a nearby pharamcy to perform first aid. That all occurred with less than 30 seconds of the collision. Earl

Response:

> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this : > … If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" > moral > … beliefs, they should change their professions. > That’s the "Land of the Free", don’t you know ?

Not legal in France.  French TV had a program about some young girls trying to get some "day after" pills at a pharmacist and having difficulty. These are provided free in France and the aim, of course, is not to have pregnant young girls who will cost the state money in having abortions.   Of course France has a liberal policy in this kind of situation, very much so, compared to the US.  We have fewer teenage pregnant girls also. Earl

Response:

>> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" > moral beliefs, they should change their professions. > Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that.

What if a pharmacist believed that Christians shouldn’t get heart pills? miguel — Hit The Road! Photos from 32 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at > the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay. >This woman was an idiot to wait until she was completely out of >pills to refill her prescription.  Do it at least a week early. >The solution to this situation is simple.  If a pharmacist refuses to >fill a prescription – whether for birth control, pain control, or any >other drug – see the manager and tell him/her that you will no >longer shop there, and have the spine to actually never set foot >in that store, no matter if it is inconvenient to do so. >We had censorship by the left not so long ago and now we have >it by the right.  What a country!  We should change the name of >our country to United States of Intolerant Americans.

Not that easy in some places. Eg if Walmart has put the local pharmacies out of business. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Pete

Response:

>>If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" >moral >beliefs, they should change their professions. > Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that.

Sorry, but he does

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at >> the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay. >This woman was an idiot to wait until she was completely out of >pills to refill her prescription.  Do it at least a week early. > That has nothing to do with it.  The woman should have been able to > refill her scrip at *her* convenience, not in advance on the off > chance that some Jay-sus freak will have a problem with the medication > prescribed to her by her doctor. > What’s more, many prescription plans do not permit refills until the > very last second.  Mine is quite strict about refilling scrips before > the 30 days is up. > While it is appalling that any pharmacist allows dogma to interfere > with the job he or she is required to do…dispensing medicine…it is > criminal that the offending pharmacists would not transfer the > prescription to another pharmacy to be filled.  That is hijacking that > patient’s rights…placing that woman in a hopeless and desperate > situation… and I would hope that every woman who has been a victim > of such garbage sues the living daylights out of both the pharmacist > and the company fool enough to employ him or her.

Tsk, I think you’re all overreacting.  Why should that poor pharmacist have to fulfil his/her contractual obligations if s/he suspects that a customer might act in a way that wouldn’t earn the pharmacist’s approval? Non-smoking shop assistants should also be permitted to refuse to sell those nasty cigarettes to customers, and heaven forfend that teetotal shop assistants should be forced to sell the demon drink.  Similarly animal rights activists and vegetarians should be allowed to work in butchers’ shops and refuse to sell meat to those unfeeling customers who enjoy a steak.  As for what newsagents and librarians should be allowed to withhold from purchase or loan … well, I won’t even go there.  What’s the matter with you Americans that you don’t want to be dictated to about your behaviour by all and sundry?  (Just in case some irony-challenged person reads this post: it was sarcasm.) There was a similar case in the UK 2 or 3 years ago, and the store, Asda, which I think is now a subsidiary of Wal-Mart, backed the employee.  Since that time I have never shopped there – I know that my little protest won’t hurt them, but a few thousand more such protests would have an effect, so I encourage UK shoppers to boycott Asda and US shoppers to boycott Wal-Mart, until such time as they back their customers’ rights. — June G # 364

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at >> the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay. >This woman was an idiot to wait until she was completely out of >pills to refill her prescription.  Do it at least a week early. > That has nothing to do with it.  The woman should have been able to > refill her scrip at *her* convenience, not in advance on the off > chance that some Jay-sus freak will have a problem with the medication > prescribed to her by her doctor. > What’s more, many prescription plans do not permit refills until the > very last second.  Mine is quite strict about refilling scrips before > the 30 days is up. > While it is appalling that any pharmacist allows dogma to interfere > with the job he or she is required to do…dispensing medicine…it is > criminal that the offending pharmacists would not transfer the > prescription to another pharmacy to be filled.  That is hijacking that > patient’s rights…placing that woman in a hopeless and desperate > situation… and I would hope that every woman who has been a victim > of such garbage sues the living daylights out of both the pharmacist > and the company fool enough to employ him or her.

Beautiful! WoW! I think I’m in love : )

Response:

So this is happening in the great land of the "free". — — "Whether it’s god or the bomb, It’s just the same, It’s only fear under another name." Max Q.

Response:

> She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at > the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay.

This woman was an idiot to wait until she was completely out of pills to refill her prescription.  Do it at least a week early. The solution to this situation is simple.  If a pharmacist refuses to fill a prescription – whether for birth control, pain control, or any other drug – see the manager and tell him/her that you will no longer shop there, and have the spine to actually never set foot in that store, no matter if it is inconvenient to do so. We had censorship by the left not so long ago and now we have it by the right.  What a country!  We should change the name of our country to United States of Intolerant Americans. Pete

Response:

>Druggists refuse to give out pill >By Charisse Jones, USA TODAY

The is just further proof that the anti-abortion agenda is really all about punishing sex and nothing to do with saving any lives.  They want nothing other than to control women’s sex lives. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->For a year, Julee Lacey stopped in a CVS pharmacy near her home in a >Fort Worth suburb to get refills of her birth-control pills. Then one >day last March, the pharmacist refused to fill Lacey’s prescription >because she did not believe in birth control. >"I was shocked," says Lacey, 33, who was not able to get her >prescription until the next day and missed taking one of her pills. >"Their job is not to regulate what people take or do. It’s just to >fill the prescription that was ordered by my physician." >Some pharmacists, however, disagree and refuse on moral grounds to >fill prescriptions for contraceptives. And states from Rhode Island to >Washington have proposed laws that would protect such decisions. >Mississippi enacted a sweeping statute that went into effect in July >that allows health care providers, including pharmacists, to not >participate in procedures that go against their conscience. South >Dakota and Arkansas already had laws that protect a pharmacist’s right >to refuse to dispense medicines. Ten other states considered similar >bills this year. >The American Pharmacists Association, with 50,000 members, has a >policy that says druggists can refuse to fill prescriptions if they >object on moral grounds, but they must make arrangements so a patient >can still get the pills. Yet some pharmacists have refused to hand the >prescription to another druggist to fill. >In Madison, Wis., a pharmacist faces possible disciplinary action by >the state pharmacy board for refusing to transfer a woman’s >prescription for birth-control pills to another druggist or to give >the slip back to her. He would not refill it because of his religious >views. >Some advocates for women’s reproductive rights are worried that such >actions by pharmacists and legislatures are gaining momentum. >The U.S. House of Representatives passed a provision in September that >would block federal funds from local, state and federal authorities if >they make health care workers perform, pay for or make referrals for >abortions. >"We have always understood that the battles about abortion were just >the tip of a larger ideological iceberg, and that it’s really birth >control that they’re after also," says Gloria Feldt, president of >Planned Parenthood (news – web sites) Federation of America. >"The explosion in the number of legislative initiatives and the number >of individuals who are just saying, ‘We’re not going to fill that >prescription for you because we don’t believe in it’ is astonishing," >she said. >Pharmacists have moved to the front of the debate because of such >drugs as the "morning-after" pill, which is emergency contraception >that can prevent fertilization if taken within 120 hours of >unprotected intercourse. >While some pharmacists cite religious reasons for opposing birth >control, others believe life begins with fertilization and see >hormonal contraceptives, and the morning-after pill in particular, as >capable of causing an abortion. >"I refuse to dispense a drug with a significant mechanism to stop >human life," says Karen Brauer, president of the 1,500-member >Pharmacists for Life International. Brauer was fired in 1996 after she >refused to refill a prescription for birth-control pills at a Kmart in >the Cincinnati suburb of Delhi Township. >Lacey, of North Richland Hills, Texas, filed a complaint with the >Texas Board of Pharmacy after her prescription was refused in March. >In February, another Texas pharmacist at an Eckerd drug store in >Denton wouldn’t give contraceptives to a woman who was said to be a >rape victim. >In the Madison case, pharmacist Neil Noesen, 30, after refusing to >refill a birth-control prescription, did not transfer it to another >pharmacist or return it to the woman. She was able to get her >prescription refilled two days later at the same pharmacy, but she >missed a pill because of the delay. >She filed a complaint after the incident occurred in the summer of >2002 in Menomonie, Wis. Christopher Klein, spokesman for Wisconsin’s >Department of Regulation and Licensing, says the issue is that Noesen >didn’t transfer or return the prescription. A hearing was held in >October. The most severe punishment would be revoking Noesen’s >pharmacist license, but Klein says that is unlikely. >Susan Winckler, spokeswoman and staff counsel for the American >Pharmacists Association, says it is rare that pharmacists refuse to >fill a prescription for moral reasons. She says it is even less common >for a pharmacist to refuse to provide a referral. >"The reality is every one of those instances is one too many," >Winckler says. "Our policy supports stepping away but not >obstructing." >In the 1970s, because of abortion and sterilization, some states >adopted refusal clauses to allow certain health care professionals to >opt out of providing those services. The issue re-emerged in the >1990s, says Adam Sonfield of the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which >researches reproductive issues. >Sonfield says medical workers, insurers and employers increasingly >want the right to refuse certain services because of medical >developments, such as the "morning-after" pill, embryonic stem-cell >research and assisted suicide. >"The more health care items you have that people feel are >controversial, some people are going to object and want to opt out of >being a part of that," he says. >In Wisconsin, a petition drive is underway to revive a proposed law >that would protect pharmacists who refuse to prescribe drugs they >believe could cause an abortion or be used for assisted suicide. >"It just recognizes that pharmacists should not be forced to choose >between their consciences and their livelihoods," says Matt Sande of >Pro-Life Wisconsin. "They should not be compelled to become parties to >abortion."

– Ray Fischer        

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" >>> moral >>> beliefs, they should change their professions. >>Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that. > Wrong. > A pharmacist is not doing his job if he refuses. > Forget the pharmacist changing their profession, I think he should have his > ass sued off.

Even better.

Response:

> >> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" >> moral >> beliefs, they should change their professions. >Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that. > Wrong. > A pharmacist is not doing his job if he refuses.

Bingo. Exactly.

Response:

>> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" > moral > beliefs, they should change their professions. >Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that.

Wrong. A pharmacist is not doing his job if he refuses.

Response:

>>> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" >> moral >> beliefs, they should change their professions. >Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that. > Wrong. > A pharmacist is not doing his job if he refuses.

Forget the pharmacist changing their profession, I think he should have his ass sued off.

Response:

> If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" > moral > beliefs, they should change their professions.

Sorry. But, you do not get to decide that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Bill > Druggists refuse to give out pill > By Charisse Jones, USA TODAY > For a year, Julee Lacey stopped in a CVS pharmacy near her home in a > Fort Worth suburb to get refills of her birth-control pills. Then one > day last March, the pharmacist refused to fill Lacey’s prescription > because she did not believe in birth control. > "I was shocked," says Lacey, 33, who was not able to get her > prescription until the next day and missed taking one of her pills. > "Their job is not to regulate what people take or do. It’s just to > fill the prescription that was ordered by my physician." > Some pharmacists, however, disagree and refuse on moral grounds to > fill prescriptions for contraceptives. And states from Rhode Island to > Washington have proposed laws that would protect such decisions. > Mississippi enacted a sweeping statute that went into effect in July > that allows health care providers, including pharmacists, to not > participate in procedures that go against their conscience. South > Dakota and Arkansas already had laws that protect a pharmacist’s right > to refuse to dispense medicines. Ten other states considered similar > bills this year. > The American Pharmacists Association, with 50,000 members, has a > policy that says druggists can refuse to fill prescriptions if they > object on moral grounds, but they must make arrangements so a patient > can still get the pills. Yet some pharmacists have refused to hand the > prescription to another druggist to fill. > In Madison, Wis., a pharmacist faces possible disciplinary action by > the state pharmacy board for refusing to transfer a woman’s > prescription for birth-control pills to another druggist or to give > the slip back to her. He would not refill it because of his religious > views. > Some advocates for women’s reproductive rights are worried that such > actions by pharmacists and legislatures are gaining momentum. > The U.S. House of Representatives passed a provision in September that > would block federal funds from local, state and federal authorities if > they make health care workers perform, pay for or make referrals for > abortions. > "We have always understood that the battles about abortion were just > the tip of a larger ideological iceberg, and that it’s really birth > control that they’re after also," says Gloria Feldt, president of > Planned Parenthood (news – web sites) Federation of America. > "The explosion in the number of legislative initiatives and the number > of individuals who are just saying, ‘We’re not going to fill that > prescription for you because we don’t believe in it’ is astonishing," > she said. > Pharmacists have moved to the front of the debate because of such > drugs as the "morning-after" pill, which is emergency contraception > that can prevent fertilization if taken within 120 hours of > unprotected intercourse. > While some pharmacists cite religious reasons for opposing birth > control, others believe life begins with fertilization and see > hormonal contraceptives, and the morning-after pill in particular, as > capable of causing an abortion. > "I refuse to dispense a drug with a significant mechanism to stop > human life," says Karen Brauer, president of the 1,500-member > Pharmacists for Life International. Brauer was fired in 1996 after she > refused to refill a prescription for birth-control pills at a Kmart in > the Cincinnati suburb of Delhi Township. > Lacey, of North Richland Hills, Texas, filed a complaint with the > Texas Board of Pharmacy after her prescription was refused in March. > In February, another Texas pharmacist at an Eckerd drug store in > Denton wouldn’t give contraceptives to a woman who was said to be a > rape victim. > In the Madison case, pharmacist Neil Noesen, 30, after refusing to > refill a birth-control prescription, did not transfer it to another > pharmacist or return it to the woman. She was able to get her > prescription refilled two days later at the same pharmacy, but she > missed a pill because of the delay. > She filed a complaint after the incident occurred in the summer of > 2002 in Menomonie, Wis. Christopher Klein, spokesman for Wisconsin’s > Department of Regulation and Licensing, says the issue is that Noesen > didn’t transfer or return the prescription. A hearing was held in > October. The most severe punishment would be revoking Noesen’s > pharmacist license, but Klein says that is unlikely. > Susan Winckler, spokeswoman and staff counsel for the American > Pharmacists Association, says it is rare that pharmacists refuse to > fill a prescription for moral reasons. She says it is even less common > for a pharmacist to refuse to provide a referral. > "The reality is every one of those instances is one too many," > Winckler says. "Our policy supports stepping away but not > obstructing." > In the 1970s, because of abortion and sterilization, some states > adopted refusal clauses to allow certain health care professionals to > opt out of providing those services. The issue re-emerged in the > 1990s, says Adam Sonfield of the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which > researches reproductive issues. > Sonfield says medical workers, insurers and employers increasingly > want the right to refuse certain services because of medical > developments, such as the "morning-after" pill, embryonic stem-cell > research and assisted suicide. > "The more health care items you have that people feel are > controversial, some people are going to object and want to opt out of > being a part of that," he says. > In Wisconsin, a petition drive is underway to revive a proposed law > that would protect pharmacists who refuse to prescribe drugs they > believe could cause an abortion or be used for assisted suicide. > "It just recognizes that pharmacists should not be forced to choose > between their consciences and their livelihoods," says Matt Sande of > Pro-Life Wisconsin. "They should not be compelled to become parties to > abortion."

Response:

Druggists refuse to give out pill By Charisse Jones, USA TODAY For a year, Julee Lacey stopped in a CVS pharmacy near her home in a Fort Worth suburb to get refills of her birth-control pills. Then one day last March, the pharmacist refused to fill Lacey’s prescription because she did not believe in birth control. "I was shocked," says Lacey, 33, who was not able to get her prescription until the next day and missed taking one of her pills. "Their job is not to regulate what people take or do. It’s just to fill the prescription that was ordered by my physician." Some pharmacists, however, disagree and refuse on moral grounds to fill prescriptions for contraceptives. And states from Rhode Island to Washington have proposed laws that would protect such decisions. Mississippi enacted a sweeping statute that went into effect in July that allows health care providers, including pharmacists, to not participate in procedures that go against their conscience. South Dakota and Arkansas already had laws that protect a pharmacist’s right to refuse to dispense medicines. Ten other states considered similar bills this year. The American Pharmacists Association, with 50,000 members, has a policy that says druggists can refuse to fill prescriptions if they object on moral grounds, but they must make arrangements so a patient can still get the pills. Yet some pharmacists have refused to hand the prescription to another druggist to fill. In Madison, Wis., a pharmacist faces possible disciplinary action by the state pharmacy board for refusing to transfer a woman’s prescription for birth-control pills to another druggist or to give the slip back to her. He would not refill it because of his religious views. Some advocates for women’s reproductive rights are worried that such actions by pharmacists and legislatures are gaining momentum. The U.S. House of Representatives passed a provision in September that would block federal funds from local, state and federal authorities if they make health care workers perform, pay for or make referrals for abortions. "We have always understood that the battles about abortion were just the tip of a larger ideological iceberg, and that it’s really birth control that they’re after also," says Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood (news – web sites) Federation of America. "The explosion in the number of legislative initiatives and the number of individuals who are just saying, ‘We’re not going to fill that prescription for you because we don’t believe in it’ is astonishing," she said. Pharmacists have moved to the front of the debate because of such drugs as the "morning-after" pill, which is emergency contraception that can prevent fertilization if taken within 120 hours of unprotected intercourse. While some pharmacists cite religious reasons for opposing birth control, others believe life begins with fertilization and see hormonal contraceptives, and the morning-after pill in particular, as capable of causing an abortion. "I refuse to dispense a drug with a significant mechanism to stop human life," says Karen Brauer, president of the 1,500-member Pharmacists for Life International. Brauer was fired in 1996 after she refused to refill a prescription for birth-control pills at a Kmart in the Cincinnati suburb of Delhi Township. Lacey, of North Richland Hills, Texas, filed a complaint with the Texas Board of Pharmacy after her prescription was refused in March. In February, another Texas pharmacist at an Eckerd drug store in Denton wouldn’t give contraceptives to a woman who was said to be a rape victim. In the Madison case, pharmacist Neil Noesen, 30, after refusing to refill a birth-control prescription, did not transfer it to another pharmacist or return it to the woman. She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay. She filed a complaint after the incident occurred in the summer of 2002 in Menomonie, Wis. Christopher Klein, spokesman for Wisconsin’s Department of Regulation and Licensing, says the issue is that Noesen didn’t transfer or return the prescription. A hearing was held in October. The most severe punishment would be revoking Noesen’s pharmacist license, but Klein says that is unlikely. Susan Winckler, spokeswoman and staff counsel for the American Pharmacists Association, says it is rare that pharmacists refuse to fill a prescription for moral reasons. She says it is even less common for a pharmacist to refuse to provide a referral. "The reality is every one of those instances is one too many," Winckler says. "Our policy supports stepping away but not obstructing." In the 1970s, because of abortion and sterilization, some states adopted refusal clauses to allow certain health care professionals to opt out of providing those services. The issue re-emerged in the 1990s, says Adam Sonfield of the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which researches reproductive issues. Sonfield says medical workers, insurers and employers increasingly want the right to refuse certain services because of medical developments, such as the "morning-after" pill, embryonic stem-cell research and assisted suicide. "The more health care items you have that people feel are controversial, some people are going to object and want to opt out of being a part of that," he says. In Wisconsin, a petition drive is underway to revive a proposed law that would protect pharmacists who refuse to prescribe drugs they believe could cause an abortion or be used for assisted suicide. "It just recognizes that pharmacists should not be forced to choose between their consciences and their livelihoods," says Matt Sande of Pro-Life Wisconsin. "They should not be compelled to become parties to abortion."

Response:

If pharmacists do not want to fill legal prescriptions base on "their" moral beliefs, they should change their professions. — Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Druggists refuse to give out pill > By Charisse Jones, USA TODAY > For a year, Julee Lacey stopped in a CVS pharmacy near her home in a > Fort Worth suburb to get refills of her birth-control pills. Then one > day last March, the pharmacist refused to fill Lacey’s prescription > because she did not believe in birth control. > "I was shocked," says Lacey, 33, who was not able to get her > prescription until the next day and missed taking one of her pills. > "Their job is not to regulate what people take or do. It’s just to > fill the prescription that was ordered by my physician." > Some pharmacists, however, disagree and refuse on moral grounds to > fill prescriptions for contraceptives. And states from Rhode Island to > Washington have proposed laws that would protect such decisions. > Mississippi enacted a sweeping statute that went into effect in July > that allows health care providers, including pharmacists, to not > participate in procedures that go against their conscience. South > Dakota and Arkansas already had laws that protect a pharmacist’s right > to refuse to dispense medicines. Ten other states considered similar > bills this year. > The American Pharmacists Association, with 50,000 members, has a > policy that says druggists can refuse to fill prescriptions if they > object on moral grounds, but they must make arrangements so a patient > can still get the pills. Yet some pharmacists have refused to hand the > prescription to another druggist to fill. > In Madison, Wis., a pharmacist faces possible disciplinary action by > the state pharmacy board for refusing to transfer a woman’s > prescription for birth-control pills to another druggist or to give > the slip back to her. He would not refill it because of his religious > views. > Some advocates for women’s reproductive rights are worried that such > actions by pharmacists and legislatures are gaining momentum. > The U.S. House of Representatives passed a provision in September that > would block federal funds from local, state and federal authorities if > they make health care workers perform, pay for or make referrals for > abortions. > "We have always understood that the battles about abortion were just > the tip of a larger ideological iceberg, and that it’s really birth > control that they’re after also," says Gloria Feldt, president of > Planned Parenthood (news – web sites) Federation of America. > "The explosion in the number of legislative initiatives and the number > of individuals who are just saying, ‘We’re not going to fill that > prescription for you because we don’t believe in it’ is astonishing," > she said. > Pharmacists have moved to the front of the debate because of such > drugs as the "morning-after" pill, which is emergency contraception > that can prevent fertilization if taken within 120 hours of > unprotected intercourse. > While some pharmacists cite religious reasons for opposing birth > control, others believe life begins with fertilization and see > hormonal contraceptives, and the morning-after pill in particular, as > capable of causing an abortion. > "I refuse to dispense a drug with a significant mechanism to stop > human life," says Karen Brauer, president of the 1,500-member > Pharmacists for Life International. Brauer was fired in 1996 after she > refused to refill a prescription for birth-control pills at a Kmart in > the Cincinnati suburb of Delhi Township. > Lacey, of North Richland Hills, Texas, filed a complaint with the > Texas Board of Pharmacy after her prescription was refused in March. > In February, another Texas pharmacist at an Eckerd drug store in > Denton wouldn’t give contraceptives to a woman who was said to be a > rape victim. > In the Madison case, pharmacist Neil Noesen, 30, after refusing to > refill a birth-control prescription, did not transfer it to another > pharmacist or return it to the woman. She was able to get her > prescription refilled two days later at the same pharmacy, but she > missed a pill because of the delay. > She filed a complaint after the incident occurred in the summer of > 2002 in Menomonie, Wis. Christopher Klein, spokesman for Wisconsin’s > Department of Regulation and Licensing, says the issue is that Noesen > didn’t transfer or return the prescription. A hearing was held in > October. The most severe punishment would be revoking Noesen’s > pharmacist license, but Klein says that is unlikely. > Susan Winckler, spokeswoman and staff counsel for the American > Pharmacists Association, says it is rare that pharmacists refuse to > fill a prescription for moral reasons. She says it is even less common > for a pharmacist to refuse to provide a referral. > "The reality is every one of those instances is one too many," > Winckler says. "Our policy supports stepping away but not > obstructing." > In the 1970s, because of abortion and sterilization, some states > adopted refusal clauses to allow certain health care professionals to > opt out of providing those services. The issue re-emerged in the > 1990s, says Adam Sonfield of the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which > researches reproductive issues. > Sonfield says medical workers, insurers and employers increasingly > want the right to refuse certain services because of medical > developments, such as the "morning-after" pill, embryonic stem-cell > research and assisted suicide. > "The more health care items you have that people feel are > controversial, some people are going to object and want to opt out of > being a part of that," he says. > In Wisconsin, a petition drive is underway to revive a proposed law > that would protect pharmacists who refuse to prescribe drugs they > believe could cause an abortion or be used for assisted suicide. > "It just recognizes that pharmacists should not be forced to choose > between their consciences and their livelihoods," says Matt Sande of > Pro-Life Wisconsin. "They should not be compelled to become parties to > abortion."

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