Question:

Today we have a breathless report by Dave Lindorff of "The Nation" which is complete with a former Air Force Colonel who taught at the National War College declaring that a planned naval deployment is "very important evidence" of war planning. Then, of course, there’s the clincher. "This is very serious," said Ray McGovern, a former CIA threat-assessment analyst who got early word of the Navy officers’ complaints about the sudden deployment orders. Show me a sailor who wouldn’t bitch about depolying and I’ll show you an uncommon sailor. But more importantly, don’t forget it’s Ray McGovern saying this. With that as a background, let’s take a look at Lindorff’s opening 3 paragraphs where all the claims are made: As reports circulate of a sharp debate within the White House over possible US military action against Iran and its nuclear enrichment facilities, The Nation has learned that the Bush Administration and the Pentagon have moved up the deployment of a major "strike group" of ships, including the nuclear aircraft carrier Eisenhower as well as a cruiser, destroyer, frigate, submarine escort and supply ship, to head for the Persian Gulf, just off Iran’s western coast. This information follows a report in the current issue of Time magazine, both online and in print, that a group of ships capable of mining harbors has received orders to be ready to sail for the Persian Gulf by October 1. As Time writes in its cover story, "What Would War Look Like?," evidence of the forward deployment of minesweepers and word that the chief of naval operations had asked for a reworking of old plans for mining Iranian harbors "suggest that a much discussed-but until now largely theoretical-prospect has become real: that the U.S. may be preparing for war with Iran." According to Lieut. Mike Kafka, a spokesman at the headquarters of the Second Fleet, based in Norfolk, Virginia, the Eisenhower Strike Group, bristling with Tomahawk cruise missiles, has received orders to depart the United States in a little over a week. Other official sources in the public affairs office of the Navy Department at the Pentagon confirm that this powerful armada is scheduled to arrive off the coast of Iran on or around October 21. War, huh? Could it be anything else? http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Pentagon_moves_to_secondstage_plann… related stories http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Intelligence_officials_doubt_Iran_u… http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Backchannels_used_to_bypass_U.S._govern… Several U.S. and foreign intelligence sources, along with investigators, say an Iranian exile with ties to Iran-Contra peddled a bizarre tale of stolen uranium to governments on both sides of the Atlantic in the spring and summer of 2003. The story that was peddled — which detailed how an Iranian intelligence team infiltrated Iraq prior to the start of the war in March of 2003, and stole enriched uranium to use in their own nuclear weapons program — was part of an attempt to implicate both countries in a WMD plot. It later emerged that the Iranian exile was trying to collect money for his tales, sources say. Advertisement By all credible accounts, the source of this dubious tale was Manucher Ghorbanifar, an Iranian arms dealer who used middle-men and cut-outs to create the appearance of several sources. Ghorbanifar played a key role in the Iran-Contra scandal that threatened to take down the Reagan administration, in which the U.S. sold arms to Iran and diverted the proceeds to Nicaraguan militants. While the various threads of the larger story of Ghorbanifar and his intelligence peddling began in December of 2001, meetings in Paris in 2003 are far more important in illustrating — as a microcosm — the larger difficulties faced in untangling the facts relating to global intelligence trafficking. Tall Tale of Uranium During the spring and summer of 2003, Congressman Curt Weldon (R-PA) made several visits to Paris to meet with a source believed to have important military intelligence information. Unbeknownst to Weldon, the informant, who he would dub simply "Ali," was already peddling a tale of stolen uranium traveling between Iraq and Iran that had been deemed false by most intelligence agencies. As reported by American Prospect and confirmed by intelligence sources, Ali is a pseudonym used to identify a former minister in the Shah’s Iran, Fereidoun Mahdavi. Mahdavi himself is a secretary to Ghorbanifar, the originating source of the uranium fable. The American Prospect’s reporters wrote, "’Ali’ is actually a cipher for Manucher Ghorbanifar, the notorious Iranian arms dealer and accused intelligence fabricator — and the potential instrument of another potentially dangerous manipulation of American policy in the Persian Gulf region." The Washington Post discusses Ali as follows: "’These secrets,’ he says, come from ‘an impeccable clandestine source,’ whom Weldon code-names ‘Ali,’ an Iranian exile living in Paris who is a close associate of Manucher Gorbanifar. Gorbanifar is a well-known Iranian exile whom the CIA branded as a fabricator during the 1980s but who was used by the Reagan White House as a middleman for the arms-for-hostages deal with Iran." According to several intelligence sources on both sides of the Atlantic, the tale that "Ali" tells Weldon and others was as intricate as it was false. "Ali provided information that indicated Iranian intelligence had sent a team to Baghdad to extract highly enriched uranium (weapons grade) from a stockpile hidden by Saddam Hussein," one intelligence source said. Ali asserted that an Iranian intelligence team had infiltrated Iraq prior to the start of the war and stole enriched uranium to use in their own nuclear weapons program, sources say. Ghorbanifar said "the team successfully extracted the stockpile but on the way back to Iran contracted radiation poisoning," one source remarked. Upon learning this information Weldon says that he immediately notified then-CIA director George Tenet. "Tenet appeared interested, even enthusiastic about evaluating Ali and establishing a working relationship with him," Weldon wrote in his book, Countdown to Terror. "He agreed to send his top spy, Stephen Kappes, the deputy director of operations, along with me to Paris for another debriefing of Ali. "On the day of our scheduled second meeting with Ali in Paris, Kappes bowed out, claiming that "other commitments" compelled him to cancel," Weldon continued. "Later, the CIA claimed to have met with Ali independently. But I discovered this to be untrue… Incredibly, I learned that the CIA had apparently asked French intelligence to silence Ali." But according to the Prospect and several sources in intelligence abroad, the CIA did investigate, as did the Department of Defense. According to the Post, the agency tasked then-Paris station chief Bill Murray with investigating the claim, who ultimately found Ali to be a "fabricator." The CIA, understanding Ali to be Ghorbanifar, did not think him a credible source. Intelligence sources and a source close to the UN Security Council tell RAW STORY Murray took Ali (either Ghorbanifar or his agent) to Iraq in order to retrace the footsteps of the alleged mission in which the uranium was stolen from Saddam’s own stockpile and taken back to Iran. In the end, sources say, the entire event proved a wild goose chase because Ali’s earlier clarity all but evaporated. "Soon it became apparent that Ali and his sources were fabricators and were trying to extract large sums of money," one intelligence source said. Murray says he did meet with the source, but was not part of a trip to Iraq. "I did not make any such trip," Murray said. "I met with the source, found that he was not credible, forwarded the information he gave us to Washington, where it was thoroughly analyzed by many people and found not to add anything new to what we knew about Iran. The sensational charges that the source made could not be substantiated." Weldon’s office declined to comment for the record after several extended conversations. RAW STORY delayed the article for a day to give Weldon’s office a chance to comment. The neoconservative movement has long expressed an inherent distrust of the CIA. Many neoconservatives note that the agency undercounted Russia’s nuclear stockpile in the waning days of the Soviet Union, and believe that it routinely underestimates foreign threats. Weldon, who had been led to believe the CIA never opened an investigation into the information he provided, took his case directly to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld then pressured the CIA to investigate further. "CIA reluctantly, after pressure from Rumsfeld, followed up by detaching one of their weapons experts from the team that was hunting WMD in Iraq," one former CIA officer who asked to remain anonymous said. Sources say that this second investigation resulted in another wild goose chase. The question of motive, however, seems to either have been entirely missed or simply glossed over. Weldon seen caught in web By all accounts, Weldon seems to be more of an innocent bystander taken in by an internationally known con-man and the lure of spook-like activities than an inside player with an agenda or material participant in these events. The Ali composite seems to have used Weldon as a conduit by which to provide the CIA with information. There was good reason to be cautious of Manucher Ghorbanifahr, who, along with his secretary, made up the "cipher" of Ali. The CIA had already had issued two burn notices against Ghorbanifahr as early as 1984 and his role in Iran-Contra as a middleman between the hardline neoconservative and another Iran-Contra figure, Michael Ledeen. In his book, Weldon said he met Ghorbanifahr after being approached by a Democratic congressman. "On March 7, 2003, a former Democratic member of Congress and my good friend Ron … read more »

Response:

  My prediction….take it for what it’s worth…. ‘Round about October, either we will provoke Iran into attacking us (one of our ships on station perhaps?), thus "justifying" a response, or we will "create" a suitable incident, blame Iran, and attack. GWB has made up his mind that Iran must be dealt with, regardless of what they’re *really* doing.  And, we now know that we can’t believe a word he says about them, either. He’s already proven that far too many times! But, I agree that something is up.  There’s too much activity to NOT have something in the works… I feel for our fighting men and women who will once again be thrown into a war….. And folks, this one could be *very* nasty. Think of it this way….ol’ GWB’s got him a big ol’ stick, and he’s a fixin’ to stick it into a hornet’s nest and give it a good ol’ Texas scrubbin’. Mike

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The Librarian posted: (snip).. Don’t you EVER post your source references ?

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courageously avow: >  My prediction….take it for what it’s worth…. >’Round about October, either we will provoke Iran into >attacking us (one of our ships on station perhaps?), thus >"justifying" a response, or we will "create" a suitable >incident, blame Iran, and attack. >GWB has made up his mind that Iran must be dealt with, >regardless of what they’re *really* doing.  And, we now know >that we can’t believe a word he says about them, either. >He’s already proven that far too many times!

He may want to wait until he’s got the pincers on both sides of Iran stabilized so he can focus his resources.  He also has to be sure he has some Western backing because, like Hitler did in Europe, he could be extending his reach more than the rest of the constituents and there supporters will continue to tolerate.  We all know how that turned out for Germany. >But, I agree that something is up.  There’s too much >activity to NOT have something in the works… >I feel for our fighting men and women who will once again be >thrown into a war….. >And folks, this one could be *very* nasty. >Think of it this way….ol’ GWB’s got him a big ol’ stick, >and he’s a fixin’ to stick it into a hornet’s nest and give >it a good ol’ Texas scrubbin’. >Mike

– Ken Wilson

Response:

"Today we have a breathless report by Dave Lindorff of "The Nation" " Billy Bob – that means Today as on the day I posted and it means in "The Nation" a publication easily found by Google. First line of my post lists author and publication. Do you want me to spoon feed it to you too?

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> He may want to wait until he’s got the pincers on both sides of Iran > stabilized so he can focus his resources.  He also has to be sure he > has some Western backing because, like Hitler did in Europe, he could > be extending his reach more than the rest of the constituents and > there supporters will continue to tolerate.  We all know how that > turned out for Germany.

Maybe you could go into more detail on how Hitler’s "constituents" stopped tolerating his military adventures and thus brought about his downfall, as historians seem to have missed that interpretation of WWII. On second thought, no, don’t do that.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He may want to wait until he’s got the pincers on both sides of Iran > stabilized so he can focus his resources.  He also has to be sure he > has some Western backing because, like Hitler did in Europe, he could > be extending his reach more than the rest of the constituents and > there supporters will continue to tolerate.  We all know how that > turned out for Germany. >Maybe you could go into more detail on how Hitler’s "constituents" stopped >tolerating his military adventures and thus brought about his downfall, as >historians seem to have missed that interpretation of WWII. >On second thought, no, don’t do that.

Don’t get him started.  He’ll start telling you about how Adolf Hitler the artist was misunderstood, and not as bad as GWB.

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adolph hitler was a bad artist no matter what else you think of him

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  My prediction….take it for what it’s worth…. > ‘Round about October, either we will provoke Iran into attacking us (one > of our ships on station perhaps?), thus "justifying" a response, or we > will "create" a suitable incident, blame Iran, and attack. > GWB has made up his mind that Iran must be dealt with, regardless of > what they’re *really* doing.  And, we now know that we can’t believe a > word he says about them, either. He’s already proven that far too many > times! > But, I agree that something is up.  There’s too much activity to NOT > have something in the works… > I feel for our fighting men and women who will once again be thrown into > a war….. > And folks, this one could be *very* nasty. > Think of it this way….ol’ GWB’s got him a big ol’ stick, and he’s a > fixin’ to stick it into a hornet’s nest and give it a good ol’ Texas > scrubbin’. > Mike

Fantasize on, pal. He’s politically dead meat in a stinky stick. D.C. won’t back him and the populace is a red cunt hair from a 1968 re-do. This time, there’s no domestic National Guard left to send in. Keep your lazier eye on the economic bad news en route. That’s the REAL story. That fuckwad’s gaming of the pentagon for the media is just a diversion. What people REALLY care about is their wallet. The End.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> He may want to wait until he’s got the pincers on both sides of Iran > stabilized so he can focus his resources.  He also has to be sure he > has some Western backing because, like Hitler did in Europe, he could > be extending his reach more than the rest of the constituents and > there supporters will continue to tolerate.  We all know how that > turned out for Germany. > Maybe you could go into more detail on how Hitler’s "constituents" stopped > tolerating his military adventures and thus brought about his downfall, as > historians seem to have missed that interpretation of WWII. > On second thought, no, don’t do that.

35% is not a majority. but combine that with some hysteria and some SS the you can produce a 90% majority. In a lot of ways this story reminds me of the way Bush enflamed Congress to give him over 90% vote to attack Iraq. Also the way he is oving to consolidate power into the executive branch. anyway for your edification meet the German Resistance http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/1148/july2.html try to ignore the music and below a short version of how Hitler came to power using fear and then terror. Hitler foiled all attempts to gain a majority in parliament and on that basis convinced President Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag again. Elections were scheduled for early March, but on February 27, 1933, the Reichstag building was set on fire. Since a Dutch independent communist was found in the building, the fire was blamed on a Communist plot to which the government reacted with the Reichstag Fire Decree of February 28, which suspended basic rights, including habeas corpus. Under the provisions of this decree, the Communist Party and other groups were suppressed, and Communist functionaries and deputies were arrested, put to flight, or murdered. A key element of Hitler’s appeal was his ability to convey a sense of offended national pride caused by the Treaty of Versailles imposed on the defeated German Empire by the Western Allies. Germany had lost economically important territory in Europe along with its colonies and in admitting to sole responsibility for the war had agreed to pay a huge reparations bill totaling 32 billion mark. Most Germans bitterly resented these terms but early Nazi attempts to gain support by blaming these humiliations on "international Jewry" were not particularly successful with the electorate. The party learned quickly and soon a more subtle propaganda emerged, combining anti-Semitism with an attack on the failures of the "Weimar system" and the parties supporting it. Having failed in overthrowing the Republic by a coup, Hitler now pursued the "strategy of legality": this meant formally adhering to the rules of the Weimar Republic until he had legally gained power and then transforming liberal democracy into a Nazi dictatorship. Some party members, especially in the paramilitary SA, opposed this strategy and Ernst R

Question:

"The United States and France have reached a deal on a Lebanon resolution for consideration by the United Nations Security Council, French and US diplomats confirmed Saturday." I din’t know France was involved … Unless they provided more missiles ! —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

> "The United States and France have reached a deal on a Lebanon > resolution for consideration by the United Nations Security Council, > French and US diplomats confirmed Saturday." > I din’t know France was involved … Unless they provided > more missiles ! > —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==—- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Why involve the French???? Try experience. Better yet try learning from their experience. Lebanon became part of numerous succeeding empires, among them Syrian, Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Crusader, and Ottoman. Lebanon was part of the Ottoman Empire for over 400 years, but following World War I, the area became a part of the Syrian Mandate of France. France subsequently carved Syria into several ethnic enclaves, Lebanon being the largely Christian area. It also included areas containing many Muslims and Druzes. The French Mandate of Syria was a League of Nations Mandate created after the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was split by the Treaty of Versailles. Four mandate territories were created, with the rest of the territory placed under monarchies. The British controlled the Mandates of Palestine and Iraq, while the French controlled the Mandates of Lebanon and Syria. France and Syria signed a Franco-Syrian Treaty of Independence in 1936, but the Mandate continued because France failed to ratify the document. Syria again declared its independence, this time from Vichy France in 1944. [edit] History Following the Sanremo conference and the defeat of King Faisal’s short-lived monarchy at the Battle of Maysalun, the French under General Henri Gouraud subdivided their new mandate of Syria into five states. They were the states of Damascus, Aleppo, Alaouites, Jebel Druze, and Alexandretta (modern-day Hatay). In June, 1922, France established a loose federation between four of the states:Damascus, Aleppo, Alaouites, and Jebel Druze. On December 1, 1924, France united the states of Aleppo and Damascus into the state of Syria, adopting the federal flag (green-white-green with French canton). Jebel Druze was incorporated into the Syrian republic in 1936, and Alaouites in 1937. Alexandretta (Hatay) was handed over to Turkey by the French in 1939 after complaints by Ataturk about the alleged mistreatment of the Turkish population. Syria has not recognized the incorporation of Hatay within Turkey and the issue has been a source of some tension between the two countries. Alaouites Alaouites, or the Alawite State, was a French mandate in the coastal area of present-day Syria after World War I. It was renamed Latakia in 1930 and became part of Syria in 1937. Population was 278,000 in 1930, mostly belonging to the Alawite sect of Shi’a Islam. The collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the war brought on a scramble to take control of various provinces of the empire. France occupied Syria in 1918, and received it as a mandate from the League of Nations on September 2, 1920. Initially it was an autonomous territory under French rule, then declared a state September 29, 1923, with the port city of Latakia as its capital. The country gained independence in 1943, while France was occupied by Germany. The last French troops withdrew in 1946. Lebanon’s unwritten National Pact of 1943 required that its president be a Christian and its prime minister be a Muslim. Lebanon’s history since independence has been marked by alternating periods of political stability and turmoil (including a civil conflict in 1958) interspersed with prosperity built on Beirut’s position as a regional center for finance and trade. The National Pact is an unwritten agreement that laid the foundation of Lebanon and has shaped the country to this day. Following negotiations between the Shi’ite, Sunni, and Maronite leaderships, the National Pact was born in the summer of 1943 allowing Lebanon to be independent. Among the following key points of the agreement are: the Maronites to not seek foreign intervention and accept Lebanon as an "Arab" country, instead of a "Western" one. the Muslims (Shi’ites and Sunnis) to abandon their aspirations to unite with Syria the President of the Republic to always be a Maronite. the President of the Council of Ministers (prime minister) to always be a Sunni. the President of the National Assembly to always be a Shi’ite. Parliament members to be in a ratio of 6:5 in favour of Christians to Muslims. The last point was to be a contentious issue, especially in the Lebanese Civil War, where demographic changes in the 1970s resulted in Maronites making up approximately one-third of the population (compared to 51% in the 1932 census) and the other two-thirds made up of mostly Muslims. As well, Shi’ites as part of this demographic change turned into the largest religious community. This resulted in Maronites having a disproportionate share of the government, which was the main issue in the Lebanese Civil War. so todays events derived froms the result "French Mandate of Syria" As Condi said, "When will we learn?" truly.

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> Why involve the French???? Try experience. Better yet try learning from > their experience.

Oh yea !  What happens when two outside parties intervene:   "France and the United States had drafted a U.N. resolution to bring an end to the   fighting but are now considering changes to overcome Arab criticism that it   favors Israel.   The existing draft would allow Israeli soldiers to stay in the south until an   international force deploys. It calls for a "full cessation of hostilities" and says   Hizbollah must stop all attacks while Israel must halt "offensive military operations." The reply ? .. The Lebanon government wants no UN farce .. it’s military is going to protect Israel ’s boarder with the great talent it has shown  over the past years you bet ! . And Hizbollah can keep the rockets as long as they point in a safe, down range target. Long term results are pretty clear: Signs are already going up in Southern Lebanon for newly expanded Israel homeland homes, shopping centers and gun ranges. *Inlaws that never leave*

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Question:

You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re asking for shit. Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t like the menu you should have ordered something else. Rieni

Response:

> You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing > a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re > asking for shit. Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t > like the menu you should have ordered something else. > Rieni

Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there *was* an "America." Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut the fuck up. Lord Valve American

Response:

> Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which > gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, > poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, > and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut > the fuck up.

Jeez… When are you going to grow a set of balls and start speaking up when there’s something on your mind? :0) See ya, John P.S. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me about the "Fender" tubes that were in the Super Champ that I bought.

Response:

>You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >asking for shit.

Hey, French idiot, why didn’t you stop Hitler in 1936 when they broke the treaty of Versailles? You could have saved over 50 million lives and we wouldn’t have had to liberate your ass. Why don’t you go visit some American graves in your country today and give them thanks for giving you the chance to freely hate America, instead of being forced to by Nazis or Communists. Imagine if we wouldn’t have stopped Saddam in 1991 and let him take over the Middle East. Imagine if we didn’t protect the world’s oil supply for your selfish ass. Where would you be, Frenchie? Where would the Western World be without the US? >Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t >like the menu you should have ordered something else. >Rieni

Nobody is crying dipshit, only the French who have no more power in the world. Sit down, shut up and let us protect the free world asswipe, we don’t need you.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >asking for shit. Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t >like the menu you should have ordered something else. >Rieni > Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there *was* an > "America." > Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which > gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, > poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, > and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut > the fuck up. > Lord Valve > American

Besides…   we tried our best to ’stay out of it’… gtski

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >asking for shit. > Hey, French idiot, why didn’t you stop Hitler in 1936 when they broke > the treaty of Versailles? You could have saved over 50 million lives > and we wouldn’t have had to liberate your ass. Why don’t you go visit > some American graves in your country today and give them thanks for > giving you the chance to freely hate America, instead of being forced > to by Nazis or Communists. > Imagine if we wouldn’t have stopped Saddam in 1991 and let him take > over the Middle East. Imagine if we didn’t protect the world’s oil > supply for your selfish ass. Where would you be, Frenchie? Where would > the Western World be without the US? >Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t >like the menu you should have ordered something else. >Rieni > Nobody is crying dipshit, only the French who have no more power in > the world. Sit down, shut up and let us protect the free world > asswipe, we don’t need you.

I hate to correct you when you’re on a roll, but it should read: "Hey, Dutch idiot…" Carry on.

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> Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there *was* an > "America."

As did Christians, Jews, Animists, Pagans and Zoroastrians. What’s your point?

Response:

> Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which > gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, > poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, > and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut > the fuck up. > Lord Valve > American

1. America invaded Vietnam, Iraq. Mass murder. 2. U.S. Serial Killers. 3. You’re so fat, it’s clearly short circuited the brain metabolism required to do all but perpetuate incontinence. 4. See 1-3 then lick the nipples on those wretched man boobs of yours. 5. See 1-4.

Response:

>I hate to correct you when you’re on a roll, but it should read: "Hey, Dutch >idiot…" >Carry on.

I was going by his news service "news.wanadoo.fr". Isn’t that French? Either, way, the wooden shoe fits.

Response:

> >I hate to correct you when you’re on a roll, but it should read: "Hey, Dutch >idiot…" >Carry on. > I was going by his news service "news.wanadoo.fr". Isn’t that French?

> Either, way, the wooden shoe fits.

Agreed.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >> a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >> asking for shit. Eat that shit, stop crying about it, if you don’t >> like the menu you should have ordered something else. >> Rieni > Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there > *was* an > "America." > Puh-LEASE – you’re from the Continent of Death, which > gave the world Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Marx, Lenin, > poison gas, communism, fascism, socialism, Nazism, > and various other pieces of majorly sick shit…so shut > the fuck up. > Lord Valve > American > Besides…   we tried our best to ’stay out of it’… > gtski

"we" she writes. Another anonymous chickenshit 3 miles back holding a torch and a stick

Response:

> Muslims started killing people many hundreds of years before there *was* an >"America." >Lord Valve >Ignorant

So did Christians, bright-eyes.

Response:

It’s amazing how many people can’t stick with current events.  All the lamer rightie replys are talking about history while the original poster is talking about the modern era. The fact is since the end of WW II the USA has instigated overt and covert actions against other nations dozens of times.

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courageously avow: >It’s amazing how many people can’t stick with current events.  All the >lamer rightie replys are talking about history while the original >poster is talking about the modern era. >The fact is since the end of WW II the USA has instigated overt and >covert actions against other nations dozens of times.

hmmmmm, thinking ……. the righties have to go back to WWII because it’s the most recent example of American muscle flexing that didn’t end in them eventually having their ass handed to them? hmmmmm, thinking ……. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

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>the righties have to go back to WWII because it’s the most recent >example of American muscle flexing that didn’t end in them eventually >having their ass handed to them?

No, I think they have to go back that far to find a war that actually had some kind of rational just cause to it. Everything since WWII has pretty much been imperialist meddling and interference in other nation’s soveriegn affairs, with the added economic benefit to the defense/industrial complex.  After picking on small fry like Panama, Grenada (doesn’t get much smaller than that), staging assasinations, rigging elections, and so forth, It’s a wonder the USA isn’t hated more than we already are.

Response:

>>You kill them, they kill you. You, the Americans, started the killing >a very long time ago. If you vote for a killer like Bush, you’re >asking for shit. >Hey, French idiot, why didn’t you stop Hitler in 1936 when they broke >the treaty of Versailles?

You’re mixing up the 40s with today, and Europe with the middle east. Apples and pears. Also, I’m Dutch, and most people in Holland and the Dutch government support Bush. There are Dutch soldiers in Iraq. I’m just one of those who are bright enough to see what kind of guy Bush really is. You don’t need to be smart, just look at him and all you see is a pile of shit. Terrorists will attack Holland too one day and then of course most Dutch will be against the war in Iraq. Just like it went in Spain. But why do we need to be counter-attacked first before most of us realize we’re fighting the wrong war? Look at the bombs in London, some months ago. 30 deads and there still talking about it. Well in Irak at least 30 people die on a daily base. So basically we’re saying that a Western life does count more than an Iraqi life. And I refuse to accept that. Peace brother, Rieni

Response:

>>I hate to correct you when you’re on a roll, but it should read: "Hey, Dutch >idiot…" >Carry on. >I was going by his news service "news.wanadoo.fr". Isn’t that French? >Either, way, the wooden shoe fits.

Your momma loves my wooden cock and I’m not talking pinewood here. Rieni

Response:

Question:

It’s going to be my first cruise and I’ve wanted to go for so long!  I’ve read about the Norwegian Star but am a little confused on some of the logistics. Can passengers make reservations for some of NCL’s special dining venues BEFORE boarding?  Or can you only make them on the ship? When and where do you make reservations?  I’ve heard you need to get up early and go down to the lobby to make reservations the morning of the day before you want to dine, and even then sometimes the reservations are not available.  You can’t do it by phone from your cabin?  When and where do you need to go to get reservations?  Is it better to be there bright and early or wait awhile so you don’t end up at the end of a long line? Are any of the special dining areas open for lunch (especially the sushi bar), or is it just dinner?  And is the tapas restaurant on the Norwegian Star gone? Same questions about reservations at the spa. (Yeah, I basically plan on eating, reading on our balcony, sitting in a jacuzzi and getting a few spa treatments). Where do you recommend we dine?  And are there any shore excurisions on the Mexican Riveria you recommend (just in case we do decide to get off the ship for awhile)? Thank you for any responses!

Response:

I will try and answer your question -I have not been on the Star but her sister ship the Dawn 3 times.  Your are correct about reservations. There is a table by the main desk that opens around 9 am taking reservations for that day and the next. You can call by phone as well. If you are in a suite you can make them for the week in advance. I never found I could not get a reservation if I was flexible on the time. Except in two situations, Valentines Day at the Bistro and they took reservations until 10:30pm, the teppanyaki room because of the limited seating and few slots per night. They did open at lunch for sushi on sea days. None of the other specialty restaurants were open. YMMV

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s going to be my first cruise and I’ve wanted to go for so long!  I’ve > read about the Norwegian Star but am a little confused on some of the > logistics. > Can passengers make reservations for some of NCL’s special dining venues > BEFORE boarding?  Or can you only make them on the ship? > When and where do you make reservations?  I’ve heard you need to get up > early and go down to the lobby to make reservations the morning of the day > before you want to dine, and even then sometimes the reservations are not > available.  You can’t do it by phone from your cabin?  When and where do you > need to go to get reservations?  Is it better to be there bright and early > or wait awhile so you don’t end up at the end of a long line? > Are any of the special dining areas open for lunch (especially the sushi > bar), or is it just dinner?  And is the tapas restaurant on the Norwegian > Star gone? > Same questions about reservations at the spa. (Yeah, I basically plan on > eating, reading on our balcony, sitting in a jacuzzi and getting a few spa > treatments). > Where do you recommend we dine?  And are there any shore excurisions on the > Mexican Riveria you recommend (just in case we do decide to get off the ship > for awhile)? > Thank you for any responses!

Response:

We were on the Star in November 2003 so I’ll base my answers on that timeframe: >Can passengers make reservations for some of NCL’s special dining venues >BEFORE boarding?  Or can you only make them on the ship?

I believe you can only make them once onboard.   >When and where do you make reservations?  I’ve heard you need to get up >early and go down to the lobby to make reservations the morning of the day >before you want to dine, and even then sometimes the reservations are not >available.  You can’t do it by phone from your cabin?  When and where do you >need to go to get reservations?  Is it better to be there bright and early >or wait awhile so you don’t end up at the end of a long line?

There is a table in the lobby but if you call the number on the back page of the daily paper for the reservations, the people in the lobby answer!   We never had a problem making reservations if you can be flexible on the time somewhat.  We preferred 8:30 which was never a problem.  There were never long lines and they have the restaurant menus to review before making the reservations.  We ate in Versailles only once and decided we didn’t want to eat in the regular restaurants again (too noisy and too much vibration) so we ate all other meals in the reservation-only restaurants.  Another thing you can do is go to the restaurant while they are open in the evening and make a reservation then.  If they are slow, you may be able to get in at that time also.  We made a reservation in Le Bistro as soon as we boarded for that night and the restaurant had quite a few empty tables.  The restaurants are booked more fully on sea days. >Are any of the special dining areas open for lunch (especially the sushi >bar), or is it just dinner?  And is the tapas restaurant on the Norwegian >Star gone?

The sushi bar was open for lunch (maybe only on sea days) but I don’t think any of the reservation-only restaurants were open.  I believe one of the main restaurants (Versailles or Aqua) was also open in addition to the buffet area.  We ate lunches at the buffet because they had a great vegetarian Indian area!  Plenty of choices here also. >Same questions about reservations at the spa. (Yeah, I basically plan on >eating, reading on our balcony, sitting in a jacuzzi and getting a few spa >treatments).

We booked a massage on the day we boarded at the spa.  Spa was OK but not worth the money to us.  We’re not really spa people so take our opinion for what it’s worth. >Where do you recommend we dine?  And are there any shore excurisions on the >Mexican Riveria you recommend (just in case we do decide to get off the ship >for awhile)?

We enjoyed each of the restaurants and found the food to be very good as well as the service.  We loved Le Bistro (Versace place settings!) but the menu is limited to what I’ll eat so twice was enough for me. Endless Summer was very good also especially the server Maria and we ate there only once.  We ate twice in SoHo which was great also – especially the tuna tartar presentation!  Ginza was good but I thought the server was rather snotty (I was coming down with a cold so it may have been me) but the food was very good.  Versailles was good (not as good as the other restaurants) but the vibration and noise level were unpleasant.  The room is very pretty however. I can’t help on the shore excursions since we didn’t go to Mexico. If you’re interested, I have pictures from our time on the Star at our web site and copies of the daily papers also.  The link is: http://www.blazelonis.com/Hawaii.htm E-mail me if you have any more questions I can try and answer. Doug

Response:

It’s going to be my first cruise and I’ve wanted to go for so long!  I’ve read about the Norwegian Star but am a little confused on some of the logistics. Can passengers make reservations for some of NCL’s special dining venues BEFORE boarding?  Or can you only make them on the ship? When and where do you make reservations?  I’ve heard you need to get up early and go down to the lobby to make reservations the morning of the day before you want to dine, and even then sometimes the reservations are not available.  You can’t do it by phone from your cabin?  When and where do you need to go to get reservations?  Is it better to be there bright and early or wait awhile so you don’t end up at the end of a long line? Are any of the special dining areas open for lunch (especially the sushi bar), or is it just dinner?  And is the tapas restaurant on the Norwegian Star gone? Same questions about reservations at the spa. (Yeah, I basically plan on eating, reading on our balcony, sitting in a jacuzzi and getting a few spa treatments). Where do you recommend we dine?  And are there any shore excurisions on the Mexican Riveria you recommend (just in case we do decide to get off the ship for awhile)? Thank you for any responses!

Response:

I will try and answer your question -I have not been on the Star but her sister ship the Dawn 3 times.  Your are correct about reservations. There is a table by the main desk that opens around 9 am taking reservations for that day and the next. You can call by phone as well. If you are in a suite you can make them for the week in advance. I never found I could not get a reservation if I was flexible on the time. Except in two situations, Valentines Day at the Bistro and they took reservations until 10:30pm, the teppanyaki room because of the limited seating and few slots per night. They did open at lunch for sushi on sea days. None of the other specialty restaurants were open. YMMV

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s going to be my first cruise and I’ve wanted to go for so long!  I’ve > read about the Norwegian Star but am a little confused on some of the > logistics. > Can passengers make reservations for some of NCL’s special dining venues > BEFORE boarding?  Or can you only make them on the ship? > When and where do you make reservations?  I’ve heard you need to get up > early and go down to the lobby to make reservations the morning of the day > before you want to dine, and even then sometimes the reservations are not > available.  You can’t do it by phone from your cabin?  When and where do you > need to go to get reservations?  Is it better to be there bright and early > or wait awhile so you don’t end up at the end of a long line? > Are any of the special dining areas open for lunch (especially the sushi > bar), or is it just dinner?  And is the tapas restaurant on the Norwegian > Star gone? > Same questions about reservations at the spa. (Yeah, I basically plan on > eating, reading on our balcony, sitting in a jacuzzi and getting a few spa > treatments). > Where do you recommend we dine?  And are there any shore excurisions on the > Mexican Riveria you recommend (just in case we do decide to get off the ship > for awhile)? > Thank you for any responses!

Response:

We were on the Star in November 2003 so I’ll base my answers on that timeframe: >Can passengers make reservations for some of NCL’s special dining venues >BEFORE boarding?  Or can you only make them on the ship?

I believe you can only make them once onboard.   >When and where do you make reservations?  I’ve heard you need to get up >early and go down to the lobby to make reservations the morning of the day >before you want to dine, and even then sometimes the reservations are not >available.  You can’t do it by phone from your cabin?  When and where do you >need to go to get reservations?  Is it better to be there bright and early >or wait awhile so you don’t end up at the end of a long line?

There is a table in the lobby but if you call the number on the back page of the daily paper for the reservations, the people in the lobby answer!   We never had a problem making reservations if you can be flexible on the time somewhat.  We preferred 8:30 which was never a problem.  There were never long lines and they have the restaurant menus to review before making the reservations.  We ate in Versailles only once and decided we didn’t want to eat in the regular restaurants again (too noisy and too much vibration) so we ate all other meals in the reservation-only restaurants.  Another thing you can do is go to the restaurant while they are open in the evening and make a reservation then.  If they are slow, you may be able to get in at that time also.  We made a reservation in Le Bistro as soon as we boarded for that night and the restaurant had quite a few empty tables.  The restaurants are booked more fully on sea days. >Are any of the special dining areas open for lunch (especially the sushi >bar), or is it just dinner?  And is the tapas restaurant on the Norwegian >Star gone?

The sushi bar was open for lunch (maybe only on sea days) but I don’t think any of the reservation-only restaurants were open.  I believe one of the main restaurants (Versailles or Aqua) was also open in addition to the buffet area.  We ate lunches at the buffet because they had a great vegetarian Indian area!  Plenty of choices here also. >Same questions about reservations at the spa. (Yeah, I basically plan on >eating, reading on our balcony, sitting in a jacuzzi and getting a few spa >treatments).

We booked a massage on the day we boarded at the spa.  Spa was OK but not worth the money to us.  We’re not really spa people so take our opinion for what it’s worth. >Where do you recommend we dine?  And are there any shore excurisions on the >Mexican Riveria you recommend (just in case we do decide to get off the ship >for awhile)?

We enjoyed each of the restaurants and found the food to be very good as well as the service.  We loved Le Bistro (Versace place settings!) but the menu is limited to what I’ll eat so twice was enough for me. Endless Summer was very good also especially the server Maria and we ate there only once.  We ate twice in SoHo which was great also – especially the tuna tartar presentation!  Ginza was good but I thought the server was rather snotty (I was coming down with a cold so it may have been me) but the food was very good.  Versailles was good (not as good as the other restaurants) but the vibration and noise level were unpleasant.  The room is very pretty however. I can’t help on the shore excursions since we didn’t go to Mexico. If you’re interested, I have pictures from our time on the Star at our web site and copies of the daily papers also.  The link is: http://www.blazelonis.com/Hawaii.htm E-mail me if you have any more questions I can try and answer. Doug

Response:

Question:

>p.s. Are you even aware that Al-Qaeda came about through the old "Muslim >Brotherhood" which GOT its start when it allied with Hitler?   Read a little >history and then come back.

I’ve never heard of this, but I could understand a degree of resentment on the part of the Iraqis (and Arabs in general) towards the Western powers over the Versailles Settlement/Paris Conference process of 1919 which largely shaped the modern Middle East, and in which Woodrow Wilson’s principles of self-determination were mostly ignored, much to the disgust of the Arab League.  See Margaret MacMillan’s "Peacemakers" for a good overview.  Oil interests were already calling the shots at that time, with the British, French and Americans all failing to see beyond the lure of lucrative real-estate and petroleum concessions in the Middle East, and hang the consequences for ethnic and religious toleration and future stability. Is that enough history? Ian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > I really hope you don’t mean it like that because: > I’m sorry that you misunderstood what I said. What I meant was… > Henry, >  you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing > it > now for iraq, and we’ll probably be dumb enuff to do it again for someone > else who will have trouble appreciating it. thats just the kind of people > we > are." > Now that I have THAT cleared up… > Paul that was what you posted. Like I said, it can be interpreted *Very* > differently. > Hence the reason I posted the worst possible interpretation and hoped that > it is not what you meant. > I was vary careful with my words. > Chris, I understand your post. You BELIEVE that America is evil, almost > joined Hitler, Intends to steal the Iraqi oil, that our fathers > generations > sacrifice for Europe was "miniscule" and lacked meaning, and that we have > a > waiting list of 60 countries (yes, that is HALF of the countries in the > world…) to invade and take over for our American personal gain, and that > we didn’t consult long > Nope. Very far from it. I know some people in the US unknowingly have a very > exaggerated picture of past events in their mind. > On the other hand, I find it very difficult to believe that what’s going on > in Iraq is even remotely close to what happened in Europe in WWII. > Even Bush stood well away from mentioning that during the D-Day > celebrations. > WRT 60 countries, the news is a little old: > http://www.why-war.com/news/2002/06/03/terrorwa.html > Quoted 5 days ago on BBC. > and hard with our "Allies" (who didn’t want us to invade because they had > been cheating with Iraq for their OWN gain and didn’t want it to come out) > before we did what had to be done. > Nothing every "civilised" country hasn’t done for donkey’s years. Reagan, > Clinton, Thatcher, Miterand, Kohl… all guilty as charged – doesn’t make > any one any better. > You don’t believe that the WMD’s were shipped to Syria just before the > war, > I don’t believe there’s any evidence of the existence of WMD’s being in Iraq > at the beginning or shortly before hostilities. > If there was any, we would have heard it by now. > and you refuse to believe that … perhaps … America had the duel > purpose > of eliminating a security threat AND liberating an oppressed people (and > they ARE liberated now). > 1) wrt security threat: US is not as safe as it would be were the Iraqui > crisis treated differently and with a bit more patience, diplomacy and > collaboration with it’s friends. > 2) The average Iraqui is still worse off and under greater violent threat > than under Saddam. And yes, I really hope their plight improves – fast. > Frankly, you sound about ready to join the Taliban in a Jihad against the > evil Americans. If that fails, perhaps you could get a job rewriting > history. > No man. Iraq DOESN’T belong in this thread at all. You brought it up and you > deal with it. > Henry (my post was to YOU afterall), > I am genuinely touched at your post of thanks to America, England and > Canada > for their actions on June 6th (and before and after) in liberating France > and much of Europe. I honestly was afraid that much of Europe had > forgotten > the sacrifice. I meant no offense to anyone, and I truly truly believe > every > word I said in the original post. > Thank you again for remembering that sacrifice, inspite of the recent > "Evil > Power" status that your leaders have given us. We would do it again. For > you… and for others. > paul > son of an American WWII veteran > Notice, no-one mentions French sacrifice for which I’m very grateful. Those > were heroes drawn from a country where most of the male population had been > wiped out in the previous war who fought against impossible odds – real > heroes – and severely delayed the Germans for the D-day preparations. > cb

Response:

> > I really hope you don’t mean it like that because: > I’m sorry that you misunderstood what I said. What I meant was… > Henry, >  you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing it > now for iraq, and we’ll probably be dumb enuff to do it again for someone > else who will have trouble appreciating it. thats just the kind of people we > are." > Now that I have THAT cleared up…

Paul that was what you posted. Like I said, it can be interpreted *Very* differently. Hence the reason I posted the worst possible interpretation and hoped that it is not what you meant. I was vary careful with my words. > Chris, I understand your post. You BELIEVE that America is evil, almost > joined Hitler, Intends to steal the Iraqi oil, that our fathers generations > sacrifice for Europe was "miniscule" and lacked meaning, and that we have a > waiting list of 60 countries (yes, that is HALF of the countries in the > world…) to invade and take over for our American personal gain, and that > we didn’t consult long

Nope. Very far from it. I know some people in the US unknowingly have a very exaggerated picture of past events in their mind. On the other hand, I find it very difficult to believe that what’s going on in Iraq is even remotely close to what happened in Europe in WWII. Even Bush stood well away from mentioning that during the D-Day celebrations. WRT 60 countries, the news is a little old: http://www.why-war.com/news/2002/06/03/terrorwa.html Quoted 5 days ago on BBC. > and hard with our "Allies" (who didn’t want us to invade because they had > been cheating with Iraq for their OWN gain and didn’t want it to come out) > before we did what had to be done.

Nothing every "civilised" country hasn’t done for donkey’s years. Reagan, Clinton, Thatcher, Miterand, Kohl… all guilty as charged – doesn’t make any one any better. > You don’t believe that the WMD’s were shipped to Syria just before the

war, I don’t believe there’s any evidence of the existence of WMD’s being in Iraq at the beginning or shortly before hostilities. If there was any, we would have heard it by now. > and you refuse to believe that … perhaps … America had the duel purpose > of eliminating a security threat AND liberating an oppressed people (and > they ARE liberated now).

1) wrt security threat: US is not as safe as it would be were the Iraqui crisis treated differently and with a bit more patience, diplomacy and collaboration with it’s friends. 2) The average Iraqui is still worse off and under greater violent threat than under Saddam. And yes, I really hope their plight improves – fast. > Frankly, you sound about ready to join the Taliban in a Jihad against the > evil Americans. If that fails, perhaps you could get a job rewriting > history.

No man. Iraq DOESN’T belong in this thread at all. You brought it up and you deal with it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Henry (my post was to YOU afterall), > I am genuinely touched at your post of thanks to America, England and Canada > for their actions on June 6th (and before and after) in liberating France > and much of Europe. I honestly was afraid that much of Europe had forgotten > the sacrifice. I meant no offense to anyone, and I truly truly believe every > word I said in the original post. > Thank you again for remembering that sacrifice, inspite of the recent "Evil > Power" status that your leaders have given us. We would do it again. For > you… and for others. > paul > son of an American WWII veteran

Notice, no-one mentions French sacrifice for which I’m very grateful. Those were heroes drawn from a country where most of the male population had been wiped out in the previous war who fought against impossible odds – real heroes – and severely delayed the Germans for the D-day preparations. cb

Response:

Your understanding of history is severely lacking, and your understanding of America is in even worse shape. Go to your room and spew your "hate America first, ask questions later (or not at all)" attitude at the TV. paul p.s. Are you even aware that Al-Qaeda came about through the old "Muslim Brotherhood" which GOT its start when it allied with Hitler?   Read a little history and then come back.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing it > now for iraq, > Anyone who can equate the fight against the Third Reich with the current > Quest For Oil, is a moron of the first order. > Your gov’t is "doing it" to Iraq, for oil and profit. > I hope they use lots of K-Y while they’re "doing it".

Response:

>It’s D-Day’s 60th B-Day on Sunday. >I’d like to thank all the nations in the world that helped France to get rid >of the Nazis. >In this troubled times, I’d like to send a message for peace, the end of the >Hunger, and a better comprehension between all the nations throughout the >world. >May all of you have a good Week End, and a thought for those who fought.

Thanks, Henry.

Response:

>  you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing it > now for iraq,

Anyone who can equate the fight against the Third Reich with the current Quest For Oil, is a moron of the first order. Your gov’t is "doing it" to Iraq, for oil and profit.   I hope they use lots of K-Y while they’re "doing it".

Response:

> > I really hope you don’t mean it like that because:

I’m sorry that you misunderstood what I said. What I meant was… Henry,  you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing it now for iraq, and we’ll probably be dumb enuff to do it again for someone else who will have trouble appreciating it. thats just the kind of people we are." Now that I have THAT cleared up… Chris, I understand your post. You BELIEVE that America is evil, almost joined Hitler, Intends to steal the Iraqi oil, that our fathers generations sacrifice for Europe was "miniscule" and lacked meaning, and that we have a waiting list of 60 countries (yes, that is HALF of the countries in the world…) to invade and take over for our American personal gain, and that we didn’t consult long and hard with our "Allies" (who didn’t want us to invade because they had been cheating with Iraq for their OWN gain and didn’t want it to come out) before we did what had to be done. You don’t believe that the WMD’s were shipped to Syria just before the war, and you refuse to believe that … perhaps … America had the duel purpose of eliminating a security threat AND liberating an oppressed people (and they ARE liberated now). Frankly, you sound about ready to join the Taliban in a Jihad against the evil Americans. If that fails, perhaps you could get a job rewriting history. Henry (my post was to YOU afterall), I am genuinely touched at your post of thanks to America, England and Canada for their actions on June 6th (and before and after) in liberating France and much of Europe. I honestly was afraid that much of Europe had forgotten the sacrifice. I meant no offense to anyone, and I truly truly believe every word I said in the original post. Thank you again for remembering that sacrifice, inspite of the recent "Evil Power" status that your leaders have given us. We would do it again. For you… and for others. paul son of an American WWII veteran

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Henry, > you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing > it > now for iraq, and we’ll probably be dumb enuff to do it again for someone > else who will have trouble appreciating it. thats just the kind of people > we > are. > paul > son of an American WWII veteran > Hey Paul, read what you just typed again and have a look at how it sounds. > Here’s how it can be interpreted in the worst case: > a) The US liberated France (or at least was so decisive as to make allies > previous efforts seem minuscule) > b) Liberation of Iraq is the motive for invading (Actually it was national > security – and that’s damn hard to justify in terms of the outcomes). > c) You believe that the US has the right to meddle in other countries > affairs without consulting allies. > I really hope you don’t mean it like that because: > a) The US had the fewest casualties of the major players in the war, entered > very late (according to some reports, could have even entered on the OTHER > side) and only after Pearl Harbour… > b) A look at who’s actually better off since before the war in Iraq started > shows that the few beneficiaries are oil companies (Higher oil prices), > Haliburton and other major Bush campaign contributors. The MAJOR losers are > the US taxpayer, Iraqui civilians (Far greater likelihood to die from a lack > of security), global security, global cooperation, US foreign influence, US > troops… > c) The current administration has a list of 60 countries where it would like > to intervene but doesn’t as the "practical limitations" of over-extending > the military are what’s keeping the handbrake on that one. > Now if you didn’t mean it like that and sincerely want to thank Henry for > his gratitude at the sacrifices your father made, that’s something > completely different – but these are heavily charged times. > My family’s made sacrifices to the same cause. One grandfather lost a lung, > a liver and most of his eardrums having been captured and escaped 3 times – > the other returned home unscathed. Interestingly enough, the one who’d been > captured 3 times was much more pro-German and saw his captors as people and > was treated very well (relatively speaking) by them. Nazi Germany in his > mind was the police state/international megalomania – not the people. > (actually he disliked the French more while he lived but that’s probably due > to the French being good at Rugby…) > Anyway, that was a generation that understood community, living together and > the need for sacrifice (not just in war). To honour the real heroes we must > remember the values they believed in. > cb

Response:

> From the middle of three generations of historians, what if Halifax had replaced > Chamberlain in 1940 rather than Churchill and sought an accommodation with Hitler, > brokered by Mussolini?

LOTS of interesting Questions…  probably though – UK developing a war economy nonetheless and a faster, more destructive war resulting. Great possibility of Nuclear weapons being more widespread before the end of the war or even before the start of BIG hostilities… Similar to Hitler staying at home for a few years longer. > As a Canadian educated in England from age seven I get a little perplexed by UK/US > spelling and terminology, but my point was that, as a proper noun, Pearl Harbor is > not HarboUr, like the British Labour Party is not (or shouldn’t be) the "Labor Party" > in the US press. > Nonetheless, my household will proudly display the Union Flag and the Maple Leaf on > Sunday. > Ian > What a two-and-eight, eh?

See it may be a propper noun but even the makers of the film spelled it "Harbour" over here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0213149/ I just wonder who gave it that name first… Cook? On a much lighter topic – have you ever seen this one: http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/independence.htm cb

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not so weird, Brian, your Mr. Lindbergh was entertained by Hitler and was quite a > fan, I believe, but then so was the future and former Edward XIII of the United > Kingdom.  As usual the real victims were GI Joe, Tommy Atkins, Poilu and Fritz.  My > Mom built bombers that were subsequently used to kill German children, but I can’t > presume to impose my detached, "enlightened" and contemporary values upon her, to > condemn or criticise her genuine contribution to what her generation saw as a > struggle for survival, perhaps rightly.  If the anniversary of D-Day means anything > to those of us who never had to be there, then let’s just ask ourselves "could I have > done that?", and respect the guys on all sides that did.

There are some funnies in the history of the beginnings of the war for each country – it’s a damn uncomfortable time I admit and I’m really happy things worked out in the long run – don’t get me wrong… Another interesting question is what if… Hitler stayed in Germany/Austria… Great question for history students… > BTW, Chris, it’s HARBOR (proper noun, and all that). > Just my er… some Euro worth.

Euro cents exist too… My GBP’s worth: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=harbour That’s what a British education does to you… You know Brits often think that over the pond an entirely different language is spoken (and written). An Elephant has a Trunk, Trainers are worn on your feet and used on the Pavement. A hood belongs on a coat not a car… And that’s not even going cockney… cb

Response:

From the middle of three generations of historians, what if Halifax had replaced Chamberlain in 1940 rather than Churchill and sought an accommodation with Hitler, brokered by Mussolini? As a Canadian educated in England from age seven I get a little perplexed by UK/US spelling and terminology, but my point was that, as a proper noun, Pearl Harbor is not HarboUr, like the British Labour Party is not (or shouldn’t be) the "Labor Party" in the US press. Nonetheless, my household will proudly display the Union Flag and the Maple Leaf on Sunday. Ian What a two-and-eight, eh?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not so weird, Brian, your Mr. Lindbergh was entertained by Hitler and was > quite a > fan, I believe, but then so was the future and former Edward XIII of the > United > Kingdom.  As usual the real victims were GI Joe, Tommy Atkins, Poilu and > Fritz.  My > Mom built bombers that were subsequently used to kill German children, but > I can’t > presume to impose my detached, "enlightened" and contemporary values upon > her, to > condemn or criticise her genuine contribution to what her generation saw > as a > struggle for survival, perhaps rightly.  If the anniversary of D-Day means > anything > to those of us who never had to be there, then let’s just ask ourselves > "could I have > done that?", and respect the guys on all sides that did. > There are some funnies in the history of the beginnings of the war for each > country – it’s a damn uncomfortable time I admit and I’m really happy things > worked out in the long run – don’t get me wrong… > Another interesting question is what if… Hitler stayed in > Germany/Austria… Great question for history students… > BTW, Chris, it’s HARBOR (proper noun, and all that). > Just my er… some Euro worth. > Euro cents exist too… > My GBP’s worth: > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=harbour > That’s what a British education does to you… You know Brits often think > that over the pond an entirely different language is spoken (and written). > An Elephant has a Trunk, Trainers are worn on your feet and used on the > Pavement. A hood belongs on a coat not a car… > And that’s not even going cockney… > cb

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> On a much lighter topic – have you ever seen this one: > http://www.shartwell.freeserve.co.uk/humor-site/independence.htm

Thanks, Chris, As an ex-pat Brit. in the USA that gave me a good laugh. Andy (airbass)

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pauls a big boy and will take care of himself thank you. I wasn’t trolling for a political fight. I told Henry thanks for remembering our fathers sacrifice, and just pointed out that America has a habit of doing that… trying to save lost peoples… and in the process I managed to start a mini-fire storm. Jean-Marie, why do you hate America so vehemently? Do you really agree with Chris that America only ‘accidentally’ ended up on the right side of WWII and that we almost teamed up with Hitler? Because that is TRUE hate filled bullshit of the first order, and if thats where you are there is no point in this conversation. Congratulations on the 60th anniversary of the Liberation of your country from the Nazi’s (no matter WHO you credit for that accomplishment). paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > sorry but why don’t you say that about the mail from Paul ? > Of course I agree with Chris… > Jean-Marie > > I really hope you don’t mean it like that because: > > a) The US had the fewest casualties of the major players in the war, > entered > > very late (according to some reports, could have even entered on the > OTHER > > side) and only after Pearl Harbour… > Chris, please keep your weird ideas on this topic out of the group. > Please. > You know where this is going to lead.

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Hi, sorry but why don’t you say that about the mail from Paul ? Of course I agree with Chris… Jean-Marie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I really hope you don’t mean it like that because: > a) The US had the fewest casualties of the major players in the war, > entered > very late (according to some reports, could have even entered on the OTHER > side) and only after Pearl Harbour… > Chris, please keep your weird ideas on this topic out of the group. Please. > You know where this is going to lead.

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> Hi, > sorry but why don’t you say that about the mail from Paul ? > Of course I agree with Chris… > Jean-Marie

JM, Brian’s right in a way… no matter how you put certain things, you can expect some pretty darn silly reactions from some people. I think I’ve known Brian long enough to see he means well. cb

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> In this troubled times, I’d like to send a message for peace, the end of the > Hunger, and a better comprehension between all the nations throughout the > world. > May all of you have a good Week End, and a thought for those who fought.

Thank you, Henry.

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Hmm…Don’t remember Vichy loyalists launching suicide attacks on Allied troops after VE Day… — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Henry, > you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing it > now for iraq, and we’ll probably be dumb enuff to do it again for someone > else who will have trouble appreciating it. thats just the kind of people we > are. > paul > son of an American WWII veteran > It’s D-Day’s 60th B-Day on Sunday. > I’d like to thank all the nations in the world that helped France to get > rid > of the Nazis. > In this troubled times, I’d like to send a message for peace, the end of > the > Hunger, and a better comprehension between all the nations throughout the > world. > May all of you have a good Week End, and a thought for those who fought. > — > Henry! > Q. Why do some bands even have bass players? > A. To translate for the drummer.

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> I really hope you don’t mean it like that because: > a) The US had the fewest casualties of the major players in the war, entered > very late (according to some reports, could have even entered on the OTHER > side) and only after Pearl Harbour…

Chris, please keep your weird ideas on this topic out of the group.  Please. You know where this is going to lead.

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Not so weird, Brian, your Mr. Lindbergh was entertained by Hitler and was quite a fan, I believe, but then so was the future and former Edward XIII of the United Kingdom.  As usual the real victims were GI Joe, Tommy Atkins, Poilu and Fritz.  My Mom built bombers that were subsequently used to kill German children, but I can’t presume to impose my detached, "enlightened" and contemporary values upon her, to condemn or criticise her genuine contribution to what her generation saw as a struggle for survival, perhaps rightly.  If the anniversary of D-Day means anything to those of us who never had to be there, then let’s just ask ourselves "could I have done that?", and respect the guys on all sides that did. BTW, Chris, it’s HARBOR (proper noun, and all that). Just my er… some Euro worth. Ian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I really hope you don’t mean it like that because: > a) The US had the fewest casualties of the major players in the war, > entered > very late (according to some reports, could have even entered on the OTHER > side) and only after Pearl Harbour… > Chris, please keep your weird ideas on this topic out of the group.  Please. > You know where this is going to lead.

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My Dad was there. He’s a couple of weeks away from his 80th Bday. He quit high school the day after Pearl Harbor to sign up. He survived WWII then when Korea broke out he signed up again because he figured the young guys needed some veteran leadership. That generation that grew up during the depression was a tougher bunch than what we’ve had since.

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It’s D-Day’s 60th B-Day on Sunday. I’d like to thank all the nations in the world that helped France to get rid of the Nazis. In this troubled times, I’d like to send a message for peace, the end of the Hunger, and a better comprehension between all the nations throughout the world. May all of you have a good Week End, and a thought for those who fought. — Henry! Q. Why do some bands even have bass players? A. To translate for the drummer.

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Henry, you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing it now for iraq, and we’ll probably be dumb enuff to do it again for someone else who will have trouble appreciating it. thats just the kind of people we are. paul son of an American WWII veteran

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s D-Day’s 60th B-Day on Sunday. > I’d like to thank all the nations in the world that helped France to get rid > of the Nazis. > In this troubled times, I’d like to send a message for peace, the end of the > Hunger, and a better comprehension between all the nations throughout the > world. > May all of you have a good Week End, and a thought for those who fought. > — > Henry! > Q. Why do some bands even have bass players? > A. To translate for the drummer.

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> Henry, > you are truly welcome. we did it for you and most of europe, we’re doing it > now for iraq, and we’ll probably be dumb enuff to do it again for someone > else who will have trouble appreciating it. thats just the kind of people we > are. > paul > son of an American WWII veteran

Hey Paul, read what you just typed again and have a look at how it sounds. Here’s how it can be interpreted in the worst case: a) The US liberated France (or at least was so decisive as to make allies previous efforts seem minuscule) b) Liberation of Iraq is the motive for invading (Actually it was national security – and that’s damn hard to justify in terms of the outcomes). c) You believe that the US has the right to meddle in other countries affairs without consulting allies. I really hope you don’t mean it like that because: a) The US had the fewest casualties of the major players in the war, entered very late (according to some reports, could have even entered on the OTHER side) and only after Pearl Harbour… b) A look at who’s actually better off since before the war in Iraq started shows that the few beneficiaries are oil companies (Higher oil prices), Haliburton and other major Bush campaign contributors. The MAJOR losers are the US taxpayer, Iraqui civilians (Far greater likelihood to die from a lack of security), global security, global cooperation, US foreign influence, US troops… c) The current administration has a list of 60 countries where it would like to intervene but doesn’t as the "practical limitations" of over-extending the military are what’s keeping the handbrake on that one. Now if you didn’t mean it like that and sincerely want to thank Henry for his gratitude at the sacrifices your father made, that’s something completely different – but these are heavily charged times. My family’s made sacrifices to the same cause. One grandfather lost a lung, a liver and most of his eardrums having been captured and escaped 3 times – the other returned home unscathed. Interestingly enough, the one who’d been captured 3 times was much more pro-German and saw his captors as people and was treated very well (relatively speaking) by them. Nazi Germany in his mind was the police state/international megalomania – not the people. (actually he disliked the French more while he lived but that’s probably due to the French being good at Rugby…) Anyway, that was a generation that understood community, living together and the need for sacrifice (not just in war). To honour the real heroes we must remember the values they believed in. cb

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Question:

Looking for advice on Hawaii cruise.  We are in our 50’s and are not interested in visiting a "private island" but instead would like to see as much of Hawaii as possible.  7 to 9 days is preferable with a flight to and from Hawaii. Any suggestions on which line/cruise to take and how to find best price would be appreciated

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Hi > Looking for advice on Hawaii cruise.  We are in our 50’s and are not > interested in visiting a "private island" but instead would like to see as > much of Hawaii as possible.  7 to 9 days is preferable with a flight to and > from Hawaii. > Any suggestions on which line/cruise to take and how to find best price > would be appreciated

Why don’t you look into one of the repositioning cruises in the Spring and Fall?  Usually Honolulu, through the islands and then 5 sea days to either Vancouver or Ensenada/San Diego.  There are also 15 Day San Diego/Hawaii Return cruises and then there is NCL 7 day cruises around the island. Check out the Cruise Line websites or talk to a TA PMM

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Took NCL Hawaii cruise in December.  My sister has probably been to Hawaii a dozen times and we saw more in one trip.  In fairness, there was a mechanical problem, so they had to skip Kiribati and added another stop on Maui and a different stop after that.  However, I also understand that NCL will be able to sail an American flagged vessel next year and may be able to stop without Kiribati then.   Lots of excursions.  We did the helicopter tour, jungle tours, etc.   It was our first cruise and we really enjoyed it.   We added on 3 extra days on Oahu after the cruise to do the North Shore, Pearl Harbor, etc. Norwegian Star was a good boat for us.  

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HAL, NCL, RCCL all have one way sailings from west coast ports to Hawaii during the spring and or fall. You either fly to Hawaii, then sail around the islands and sail home or sail to the islands and fly home.  My wife and I who are early 50’s are going in Oct 04 on the Island Princess. It is 15 nights and sails round trip from LA. Three sea days each wasy and the rest of the time you sail around the islands. Being from the east coast it reduces the flying time. Marc

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We are booked for a cruise next April – NCL – Norwegian Wind.  Can anyone tell me anything about the ship, line, or cruise?  We have cruised a number of times before but usually on RCCL. Thanks for any help.  Emails welcome.

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I was on the Wind to the western Caribbean several years ago.  I thought it was a lovely ship.  It had a few design quirks, such as access to the pool on the back of deck 9 is only from above or below or though the Terrace dining room.  And people in cabins on the front of deck 9 have to walk through the Four Seasons dining room to get to the public areas on that deck.    Those are minor things – I remember lots of public space for sitting and relaxing, both inside and outside.  I had one of the lowest category inside cabins, and it was bigger than other low category cabins I have been in.  I think NCL’s entertainment is excellent, though I only have HAL to compare it to. If you’ve never been on a "freestyle" cruise, that will be a big change for you.  I tried it on the Norwegian Star in Hawaii, and I loved it.  You have to think about where and when you want to eat, but that was a fair trade-off for the flexibility of arranging meals around other activities on board and in ports.   It took some planning and flexibility to avoid waits during the popular dining times between 7:00 and 8:00.   I was on the Wind pre-freestyle, so I don’t know how well it works on that ship.  I do know that the Sports Bar buffet isn’t very big.  Many people prefer the traditional assigned seating – freestyle gets mixed reviews.. Freestyle tipping means tips are automatically added to your shipboard account – $10 per person per day on the Star.  You can adjust it if you want, but I was happy to leave it and not deal with those envelopes on the last day.  I saw no difference in service level compared to the traditional tipping method. Have a great cruise! Joanne

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We are booked for a cruise next April – NCL – Norwegian Wind.  Can > anyone tell me anything about the ship, line, or cruise?  We have > cruised a number of times before but usually on RCCL. > Thanks for any help. >  Emails welcome.

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The "Wind" indeed has many design quirks, as another poster mentioned. Here are some of my pet peeves: very limited outdoor table seating, no or very limited seating on the promenade deck (where I normally like to hang out in the shade reading all afternoon), an almost non-exsistant library, and a poor disco setup.  Of course, these issues may mean more to some than others.  You will likely find food a notch down from RCCL, though again this is very subjective.  Entertainment and cabin sizes are good.  I have mixed feeling about "free-style dining", but I think overall I prefer it to traditional dining.  On balance, for the prices we paid on NCL over the past few years, we feel we received good value. Probably one can nit-pick about any ship or line (except HAL, of course!), but just go with the flow, ignore minor irritants, and have a great cruise. JOHN   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We are booked for a cruise next April – NCL – Norwegian Wind.  Can > anyone tell me anything about the ship, line, or cruise?  We have > cruised a number of times before but usually on RCCL. > Thanks for any help. >  Emails welcome.

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>We are booked for a cruise next April – NCL – Norwegian Wind.  Can >anyone tell me anything about the ship, line, or cruise?  We have >cruised a number of times before but usually on RCCL. >Thanks for any help. > Emails welcome.

We took the Wind last September (sailed on the 10th, most of the pax spent the rest of the cruise trying to figure out how to get home due to the WTC mess), and found the ship to be adequate, but not superior. I really would have loved to have sailed on a cruise not interrupted by disaster, but the service personnel did the very best they could under the circumstances (many of them had friends or relatives missing in the WTC). Since it was an Alaska cruise, most of the time was spent indoors – it was pretty chilly and rained every day but one – so there were only two cookouts, and the hot tubs were really only "warm" tubs – they keep them at a constant 98 degrees which just doesn’t cut it, for me. We were in one of the Owner’s Cabins, which was very nice and quite spacious.  I understand that most all the rooms are fairly roomy compared to some of the other lines.  Our concierge and butler were excellent; the cabin attendant was adequate, nothing more. As far as freestyle is concerned, we found one waiter we liked and just requested him every time we ate in the dining room (which was every night).  The upscale restaurant (sorry, I can’t remember the name) had the same menu every night – no variety, and we eat a very limited menu so the dining room was it for us.  Although we had the same waiter by choice every night (ask for Rusario), we sometimes ate at a table for two and sometimes a table for eight. So, it’s not a wonderful ship, but not a bad one, either.  The inconveniences mentioned by some of the other posters is a result of a stretch job done some years ago.  When they added the middle section, it caused some of the fore and aft cabins and amenities to be a little harder to get to. I would sail the Wind again, with no hesitation, especially to/from Hawaii. Georgene Harkness

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   Going on cruise to Hawaii in April. My Question– Do they leave the casino open while cruiseing around the islands?       E_MAIL ME PLEASE

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>    Going on cruise to Hawaii in April. > My Question– Do they leave the casino open while cruiseing around the > islands?

What cruise line?

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To the very best of MY knowledge, you are in for a surprise.  I do not believe that any ships have casinos that sail into Hawaii! NCL even change ships that they were going to use in part for that reason.  They were going to have to take out the casino.  Correct me if I’m wrong CT

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>I do not believe >that any ships have casinos that sail into Hawaii! NCL even change ships that >they were going to use in part for that reason.  They were going to have to >take out the casino.  Correct me if I’m wrong

Hi, You  are partially correct.  Many ships sail into and out of Hawaii have casinos.  I believe the law that the Hawaiian senator got passed said that ship(s) that are based in Hawaii are not allowed to have a casino.  This is the reason the Norwegian Star has no casino.  This is the only cruise ship based there on a full time basis. Best regards, Ray LIGHTHOUSE TRAVEL 800-719-9917 or 805-566-3905 http://www.lighthousetravel.com

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That’s it!  Thanks Ray CT

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Gambling is outlawed in Hawaii.  Every year we hear from Hilton (Park Place), MGM and others even Sun Int’l from S Africa about buying casinos in Hawaii.  We vote NO. So on ships they should be closed when around Hawaii. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Going on cruise to Hawaii in April. > My Question– Do they leave the casino open while cruiseing around the > islands? >       E_MAIL ME PLEASE

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Any comments on Norwegian’s 7-day Hawaiin Island cruise (which just cruises among the islands)? We’re thinking of doing this cruise in October. Thanks.

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My partner and I were on this cruise in mid-November 2003.  We had a wonderful time and would do it again if there weren’t so many other places in the world to see!   We thought the ship was very nice and the largest we’ve sailed on yet. We really enjoyed the FreeStyle dining but didn’t expect to.  We only ate once in the Versailles restaurant primarily because of the terrible amount of vibration that was there.  We ate in some of the other reservation restaurants, Le Bistro 2x, Soho 2x, Endless Summer once, and Ginza once.  The food in each of these restaurants was excellent, the service was very professional but there was a limited choice on the menus – maybe 4 to 6 entrees, 3 or 4 appetizers, 1 or 2 salads (not bad but there were only maybe 2 items on each menu that appealed to me so I was somewhat limited) We were upgraded from a minimum inside cabin to an outside with porthole which worked out great (officially 9 category upgrade but in reality, it would have been across the hall!).  The cabin was very nice with a great bathroom – ours even had 2 fridges! I have a web site with pictures and our review if you care to check it out:  http://home.tampabay.rr.com/dblaze1/index.htm Feel free to ask specific questions. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Any comments on Norwegian’s 7-day Hawaiin Island cruise (which just cruises >among the islands)? >We’re thinking of doing this cruise in October. >Thanks.

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Great pics. Thanks for the link. Howie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My partner and I were on this cruise in mid-November 2003.  We had a > wonderful time and would do it again if there weren’t so many other > places in the world to see!   > We thought the ship was very nice and the largest we’ve sailed on yet. > We really enjoyed the FreeStyle dining but didn’t expect to.  We only > ate once in the Versailles restaurant primarily because of the > terrible amount of vibration that was there.  We ate in some of the > other reservation restaurants, Le Bistro 2x, Soho 2x, Endless Summer > once, and Ginza once.  The food in each of these restaurants was > excellent, the service was very professional but there was a limited > choice on the menus – maybe 4 to 6 entrees, 3 or 4 appetizers, 1 or 2 > salads (not bad but there were only maybe 2 items on each menu that > appealed to me so I was somewhat limited) > We were upgraded from a minimum inside cabin to an outside with > porthole which worked out great (officially 9 category upgrade but in > reality, it would have been across the hall!).  The cabin was very > nice with a great bathroom – ours even had 2 fridges! > I have a web site with pictures and our review if you care to check it > out:  http://home.tampabay.rr.com/dblaze1/index.htm > Feel free to ask specific questions. > Doug >Any comments on Norwegian’s 7-day Hawaiin Island cruise (which just cruises >among the islands)? >We’re thinking of doing this cruise in October. >Thanks.

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Would someone, please, tell me when is the best time to take a cruise to Hawaii. Wife and I are looking forward not only to visit the four Islands, but also to cruise back to Ensenada, Mexico. I imagine the weather in Hawaii is always great, but what about the four day return?  We know about the Princess Line, but can you recommend other, may be RCL or Celebrity? Thanks, Vladimir

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>Would someone, please, tell me when is the best time to >take a cruise to Hawaii. Wife and I are looking forward >not only to visit the four Islands, but also to cruise back to >Ensenada, Mexico. I imagine the weather in Hawaii is >always great, but what about the four day return? > We know about the Princess Line, but can you recommend >other, may be RCL or Celebrity? >Thanks, Vladimir

is very close to your spec. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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 to took the RCL Statendam cruise which  is very close to your spec. Statendam is a HAL vessel. We know, as we’re leaving on the 15 day cruise next week. Departure from and returning to San Diego. Sounds exactly like your plan. Bob McNabb  

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Late Spring would be my first choice and my clents have really enjoyed Holland America on this type of voyage. Good luck….. Cal Ford Lido Deck Cruises – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Would someone, please, tell me when is the best time to >take a cruise to Hawaii. Wife and I are looking forward >not only to visit the four Islands, but also to cruise back to >Ensenada, Mexico. I imagine the weather in Hawaii is >always great, but what about the four day return? > We know about the Princess Line, but can you recommend >other, may be RCL or Celebrity? >Thanks, Vladimir

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> to took the RCL Statendam cruise which > is very close to your spec. >Statendam is a HAL vessel. We know, as we’re leaving on the 15 day >cruise next week. Departure from and returning to San Diego. Sounds >exactly like your plan.

OOPS! Of course Statendam is HAL, Sorry… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Bob McNabb  

Response:

I would recommend the early summer months for best weather. Hawaii is about 21 degrees north of the equator and has the same seasons as the rest of North America but is in the path of the NE trade winds. The temp is comfortable in the winter (high 70s mostly but it can get cooler-low 60s- when a cold front passes by) but is more consistently comfortable in the summer. This is especially important if you are cruising east to Ensenada and sailing against the prevailing trade winds which will help to cool the air on board during the passage. The weather in Hawaii is not always great. One of the best features of Hawaii is the fact that the trade winds tend to keep the place from getting too hot. These winds are generated by the very stable high pressure system that is camped perpetually in the north pacific, north and east of the islands. This system sends cool, dry wind towards the islands most of the year and is only displaced during the winter by the occasional warm and moist southerly winds associated with storms in the far north pacific. Late summer also has its share of problems with rare hurricanes passing near the islands in late summer. A winter passage to Ensenada is not much of a problem for a large ship but the seas do tend to be rougher at that time of year ( I have made a number of crossings on small vessels and it is no fun in winter). Even the late summer hurricanes whipping up off the coast of Mexico are no problem for a fast ship since they can track these things by satellite and take a course around them. Not to worry. All things considered, almost anytime you go will probably be alright. However, you should never assume that good weather is always assured just because it is the norm in the place where you are going. Hope you have a great cruise!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Would someone, please, tell me when is the best time to > take a cruise to Hawaii. Wife and I are looking forward > not only to visit the four Islands, but also to cruise back to > Ensenada, Mexico. I imagine the weather in Hawaii is > always great, but what about the four day return? >  We know about the Princess Line, but can you recommend > other, may be RCL or Celebrity? > Thanks, Vladimir

Response:

We were on the Vision of the Seas cruising Hawaii and across the Pacific to Ensenada in the latter part of November.  The weather was great in Hawaii, warm and sunny, and the seas were smooth in our crossing.  Would recommend the Vision highly.

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Question:

I’m assuming the menu was the same in the "non-formal" dining rooms as well.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We just got off the Dawn 10 night a week ago. > There were two "Optional" formal nights. The first full sea day on the way down > and the first full sea day on the way back.(lobster in the main dining rooms > night) We had formals so we dressed up.. I’d say about 30 % of the passengers > did, but it was also quite rocky both formal nights so maybe people didnt want > to be in high heels?  It didn’t feel wierd being all mixed in with different > attire, and we got a lot of compliments. > We loved this cruise so much, and I hope you do too! > Sandi

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The menu is the same in all the regular restaurants on formal night. On the Dawn the Venetian is the optional  formal dining room.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m assuming the menu was the same in the "non-formal" dining rooms as well. > We just got off the Dawn 10 night a week ago. > There were two "Optional" formal nights. The first full sea day on the way > down > and the first full sea day on the way back.(lobster in the main dining > rooms > night) We had formals so we dressed up.. I’d say about 30 % of the > passengers > did, but it was also quite rocky both formal nights so maybe people didnt > want > to be in high heels?  It didn’t feel wierd being all mixed in with > different > attire, and we got a lot of compliments. > We loved this cruise so much, and I hope you do too! > Sandi

Response:

We just got off the Dawn 10 night a week ago. There were two "Optional" formal nights. The first full sea day on the way down and the first full sea day on the way back.(lobster in the main dining rooms night) We had formals so we dressed up.. I’d say about 30 % of the passengers did, but it was also quite rocky both formal nights so maybe people didnt want to be in high heels?  It didn’t feel wierd being all mixed in with different attire, and we got a lot of compliments. We loved this cruise so much, and I hope you do too! Sandi

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >       <<<<Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn?  <snip> > Shaz > 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast 9 more weekends – > Thats not too bad >>>>>> > Hi Shaz I was wondering the same thing, I also read what Tom responded > that they will let you know which restaurant will be used for formal, > thanks Tom! > Does anyone know how many formal nights on a 10 night Caribbean cruise? > Where can I find the deck plan for the Dawn? > Enjoy your cruise Shaz! > Thanks, > Coqui

Deck plan at   www.ncl.com    >

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I’m not sure which restaurant they used for formal.  We opted for casual the whole cruise, and never even brought a jacket. I just looked in my paperwork and it shows that there was one "formal optional" night.  Monday.  All the rest are either resort casual or Caribbean.  It didn’t say which dining room was formal though. –Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >       <<<<Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn?  <snip> > Shaz > 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast 9 more weekends – > Thats not too bad >>>>>> > Hi Shaz I was wondering the same thing, I also read what Tom responded > that they will let you know which restaurant will be used for formal, > thanks Tom! > Does anyone know how many formal nights on a 10 night Caribbean cruise? > Where can I find the deck plan for the Dawn? > Enjoy your cruise Shaz! > Thanks, > Coqui

Response:

> Where can I find the deck plan for the Dawn? > Enjoy your cruise Shaz! > Thanks, > Coqui

Just go to www.ncl.com choose fleet and then Dawn. There is a link to the deck plans there.

Response:

On the NCL Star in November 2003 (Hawaii), there was one formal night, Tuesday, in one restaurant, Versailles.  I’d say there were probably 30 percent dressed formally and to be honest, I can’t say for the most part that they were very formal – jackets, ties, long dresses but few tuxes.  We decided that the long distance and extra luggage wasn’t worth it to us take our tuxes so we didn’t.  We have on other trips and really enjoyed dressing up, especially on QE2.  I’m sure there was a mix of formal and casual in the formal restaurant that night. Do what you feel like.  If you’d like, my web site has all the Free Style daily papers available for viewing at: http://home.tampabay.rr.com/dblaze1/index.htm Enjoy Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn? I’m wondering how they work >this out with Freestyle and all. >Thanks, >Shaz >64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast >9 more weekends – Thats not too bad

Response:

Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn? I’m wondering how they work this out with Freestyle and all. Thanks, Shaz 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast 9 more weekends – Thats not too bad

Response:

Some restaurants are designated formal and others casual.  They let you know which ahead of time. –Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn? I’m wondering how they work > this out with Freestyle and all. > Thanks, > Shaz > 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast > 9 more weekends – Thats not too bad

Response:

Shaz On the 7 night itinerary there are  optional formal nights with one dinning room designated for those that wish to dress. Don’t be surprised if some folks end up going to other restaurants in formal wear. It works out pretty well. The biggest complaint is those that insist on eating in the one formal dining room and not dressing up. Later in the evening it is fun to see the mix of passengers in the bars and casino some in tuxes and some in the most casual outfits. It is all about choices. If you want a traditional cruise book a traditional ship. For us it works and we will be on the Dawn for the third time for 10 days on the 5th. Since we don’t have to fly I will bring my Tux this trip.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn? I’m wondering how they work > this out with Freestyle and all. > Thanks, > Shaz > 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast > 9 more weekends – Thats not too bad

Response:

      <<<<Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn?  <snip> Shaz 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast 9 more weekends – Thats not too bad >>>>>> Hi Shaz I was wondering the same thing, I also read what Tom responded that they will let you know which restaurant will be used for formal, thanks Tom! Does anyone know how many formal nights on a 10 night Caribbean cruise? Where can I find the deck plan for the Dawn? Enjoy your cruise Shaz! Thanks, Coqui

Response:

Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn? I’m wondering how they work this out with Freestyle and all. Thanks, Shaz 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast 9 more weekends – Thats not too bad

Response:

Some restaurants are designated formal and others casual.  They let you know which ahead of time. –Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn? I’m wondering how they work > this out with Freestyle and all. > Thanks, > Shaz > 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast > 9 more weekends – Thats not too bad

Response:

Shaz On the 7 night itinerary there are  optional formal nights with one dinning room designated for those that wish to dress. Don’t be surprised if some folks end up going to other restaurants in formal wear. It works out pretty well. The biggest complaint is those that insist on eating in the one formal dining room and not dressing up. Later in the evening it is fun to see the mix of passengers in the bars and casino some in tuxes and some in the most casual outfits. It is all about choices. If you want a traditional cruise book a traditional ship. For us it works and we will be on the Dawn for the third time for 10 days on the 5th. Since we don’t have to fly I will bring my Tux this trip.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn? I’m wondering how they work > this out with Freestyle and all. > Thanks, > Shaz > 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast > 9 more weekends – Thats not too bad

Response:

      <<<<Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn?  <snip> Shaz 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast 9 more weekends – Thats not too bad >>>>>> Hi Shaz I was wondering the same thing, I also read what Tom responded that they will let you know which restaurant will be used for formal, thanks Tom! Does anyone know how many formal nights on a 10 night Caribbean cruise? Where can I find the deck plan for the Dawn? Enjoy your cruise Shaz! Thanks, Coqui

Response:

I’m not sure which restaurant they used for formal.  We opted for casual the whole cruise, and never even brought a jacket. I just looked in my paperwork and it shows that there was one "formal optional" night.  Monday.  All the rest are either resort casual or Caribbean.  It didn’t say which dining room was formal though. –Tom

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >       <<<<Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn?  <snip> > Shaz > 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast 9 more weekends – > Thats not too bad >>>>>> > Hi Shaz I was wondering the same thing, I also read what Tom responded > that they will let you know which restaurant will be used for formal, > thanks Tom! > Does anyone know how many formal nights on a 10 night Caribbean cruise? > Where can I find the deck plan for the Dawn? > Enjoy your cruise Shaz! > Thanks, > Coqui

Response:

> Where can I find the deck plan for the Dawn? > Enjoy your cruise Shaz! > Thanks, > Coqui

Just go to www.ncl.com choose fleet and then Dawn. There is a link to the deck plans there.

Response:

On the NCL Star in November 2003 (Hawaii), there was one formal night, Tuesday, in one restaurant, Versailles.  I’d say there were probably 30 percent dressed formally and to be honest, I can’t say for the most part that they were very formal – jackets, ties, long dresses but few tuxes.  We decided that the long distance and extra luggage wasn’t worth it to us take our tuxes so we didn’t.  We have on other trips and really enjoyed dressing up, especially on QE2.  I’m sure there was a mix of formal and casual in the formal restaurant that night. Do what you feel like.  If you’d like, my web site has all the Free Style daily papers available for viewing at: http://home.tampabay.rr.com/dblaze1/index.htm Enjoy Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn? I’m wondering how they work >this out with Freestyle and all. >Thanks, >Shaz >64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast >9 more weekends – Thats not too bad

Response:

We just got off the Dawn 10 night a week ago. There were two "Optional" formal nights. The first full sea day on the way down and the first full sea day on the way back.(lobster in the main dining rooms night) We had formals so we dressed up.. I’d say about 30 % of the passengers did, but it was also quite rocky both formal nights so maybe people didnt want to be in high heels?  It didn’t feel wierd being all mixed in with different attire, and we got a lot of compliments. We loved this cruise so much, and I hope you do too! Sandi

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >       <<<<Are there any designated formal nights on Dawn?  <snip> > Shaz > 64 days till Dawn – my heart is starting to beat fast 9 more weekends – > Thats not too bad >>>>>> > Hi Shaz I was wondering the same thing, I also read what Tom responded > that they will let you know which restaurant will be used for formal, > thanks Tom! > Does anyone know how many formal nights on a 10 night Caribbean cruise? > Where can I find the deck plan for the Dawn? > Enjoy your cruise Shaz! > Thanks, > Coqui

Deck plan at   www.ncl.com    >

Response:

I’m assuming the menu was the same in the "non-formal" dining rooms as well.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We just got off the Dawn 10 night a week ago. > There were two "Optional" formal nights. The first full sea day on the way down > and the first full sea day on the way back.(lobster in the main dining rooms > night) We had formals so we dressed up.. I’d say about 30 % of the passengers > did, but it was also quite rocky both formal nights so maybe people didnt want > to be in high heels?  It didn’t feel wierd being all mixed in with different > attire, and we got a lot of compliments. > We loved this cruise so much, and I hope you do too! > Sandi

Response:

The menu is the same in all the regular restaurants on formal night. On the Dawn the Venetian is the optional  formal dining room.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m assuming the menu was the same in the "non-formal" dining rooms as well. > We just got off the Dawn 10 night a week ago. > There were two "Optional" formal nights. The first full sea day on the way > down > and the first full sea day on the way back.(lobster in the main dining > rooms > night) We had formals so we dressed up.. I’d say about 30 % of the > passengers > did, but it was also quite rocky both formal nights so maybe people didnt > want > to be in high heels?  It didn’t feel wierd being all mixed in with > different > attire, and we got a lot of compliments. > We loved this cruise so much, and I hope you do too! > Sandi

Response:

Question:

 > See also the interesting article posted hereunder about the  > Bush family’s ties to the Nazi regime in Germany. Kindly refrain from invoking Godwin’s Law in future. Cheers David

Response:

> A couple of month’s ago (Sep/Oct 2003), I was struck by the analogy > between the "Triumph of the Will" (1934) and Gen. Myers’ comments > about the war in Iraq, right about the time of Leni Riefenstahl’s > death…

Lemme guess. Shortly before that you were struck by the bus from which you derive your screen name? Maybe that explains the lunacy of posting asinine political opinions on a celebrity group?

Response:

>  > See also the interesting article posted hereunder about the >  > Bush family’s ties to the Nazi regime in Germany. > Kindly refrain from invoking Godwin’s Law in future. > Cheers > David

"Well, I think comparing Dean’s supporters to Hitler’s Brownshirts is excessive and not at all helpful in discussing the issues. But I think you’re correct in pointing out that Dean’s campaign is making amazingly good use of new media and new technology." http://www.whis.net/archives/000230.html However: I am not consumed with hatred or fear… Just preoccupied about this Bush guy, which is why I support H. Dean.  And yes, I am afraid there is indeed a need to invoke the Nazis, when looking for historic references for W.’s pre-emptive war doctrine.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > A couple of month’s ago (Sep/Oct 2003), I was struck by the analogy > between the "Triumph of the Will" (1934) and Gen. Myers’ comments > about the war in Iraq, right about the time of Leni Riefenstahl’s > death…  Addressing Congress and during speeches to fellow army men, > the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who kept mixing up ‘Iraqis’ > and ‘terrorists’, said: "I will tell you one thing: Your armed forces > will never give up. We will never, ever give up. Those men and women > who are fighting tonight ? are not going to give up," … "We know how > harmful fear can be, it can destroy a society. Just because we have > this great experiment in democracy and it is working so well, doesn’t > mean it has to be that way forever" … "What they want to do is do > away with our way of life." … "In fighting the war the nation needs > three things: patience, commitment and the will to win."  … "That is > our biggest commitment to this: the blood and treasure of our people" > … "Americans must remain committed to combating the threat that > still endangers the United States and its allies." … "My view is we > cannot let our will be dominated by theirs, and it won’t." … "The > will to win is crucial, as the war is, more than anything, a battle of > wills". … > .-  Just wondering what the Wiesenthal Centre would have to say about > this.

The only Jews who opposed the war in Iraq live in Hollywood. -Rich

Response:

: > A couple of month’s ago (Sep/Oct 2003), I was struck by the analogy : > between the "Triumph of the Will" (1934) and Gen. Myers’ comments : > about the war in Iraq, right about the time of Leni Riefenstahl’s : > death…  Addressing Congress and during speeches to fellow army men, : > the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who kept mixing up ‘Iraqis’ : > and ‘terrorists’, said: "I will tell you one thing: Your armed forces : > will never give up. We will never, ever give up. Those men and women : > who are fighting tonight ? are not going to give up," … "We know how : > harmful fear can be, it can destroy a society. Just because we have : > this great experiment in democracy and it is working so well, doesn’t : > mean it has to be that way forever" … "What they want to do is do : > away with our way of life." … "In fighting the war the nation needs : > three things: patience, commitment and the will to win."  … "That is : > our biggest commitment to this: the blood and treasure of our people" : > … "Americans must remain committed to combating the threat that : > still endangers the United States and its allies." … "My view is we : > cannot let our will be dominated by theirs, and it won’t." … "The : > will to win is crucial, as the war is, more than anything, a battle of : > wills". … : > .-  Just wondering what the Wiesenthal Centre would have to say about : > this. :   : The only Jews who opposed the war in Iraq live in Hollywood. : -Rich      A curious statement, and not just because it’s untrue.

Response:

A couple of month’s ago (Sep/Oct 2003), I was struck by the analogy between the "Triumph of the Will" (1934) and Gen. Myers’ comments about the war in Iraq, right about the time of Leni Riefenstahl’s death…  Addressing Congress and during speeches to fellow army men, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who kept mixing up ‘Iraqis’ and ‘terrorists’, said: "I will tell you one thing: Your armed forces will never give up. We will never, ever give up. Those men and women who are fighting tonight

Question:

Walk to the Bir-Hakeim M

Question:

What have these posters got against the French? (OK, don’t ask, I presume they’re Americans who’ve flushed their Moet down the sink and relabelled those bags of French Fries ). Isn’t it about time they all grew up and realised that the rest of the world doesn’t give a damn for their whining.  I’m British, we were in Iraq too, I don’t agree with how the French handled the situation but either: 1. They were being childish, and being childish back is not the answer or… 2. They expressed a legitimate position, to which they are entitled. I’m not expressing any opinion as to which, but certainly acting like whining brats isn’t going to help anyone. The French do not live in the US, are not bound by US opinion, do not cowtow to the almighty dollar, don’t give two hoots for George Bush.  GET OVER IT! Paul DS.

Response:

I have been going to Paris at least every third year for 35 years., often [when younger] staying at very reasonable (down the hall) hotels; and NEVER saw what you describe. Always ‘normal’ toilets. "It  doesn’t matter what you do in the bedroom as long as you don’t do it in the street and frighten the horses".      – Mrs. Patrick Campbell (English actress)

Response:

> LOL, Dave..Picture this though, i don’t know how old u are, but i’m 50 > and my joints are feeling it..I have this vision at my age trying to > squat and pee!!! NOT, LOL, and then avoid a rush of water while > pulling up my britches..Arghhh!!!!! OK,as usual for a man it’s > easier:-) Thank God, i did not encounter 1 of those contraptions, > lol..

To my surprise there were toilets like this on an autoroute ‘rest stop’ – it looked fairly modern. All the English women queued up to use the ‘disabled’ toilet which was a ’standard’ one. I dont recall any of the squatting ones having a flush at all tho – but I’m more accustomed to finding them in Africa.  I’ve got the aging joints problem too – I need a handle or something to pull myself up with! —

Response:

You have led a very sheltered life. rjf – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have been going to Paris at least every third year for 35 years., > often [when younger] staying at very reasonable (down the hall) hotels; > and NEVER saw what you describe. Always ‘normal’ toilets. > "It  doesn’t matter what you do in the bedroom as long as you don’t do > it in the street and frighten the horses". >      – Mrs. Patrick Campbell (English actress)

Response:

> > I used one in a caf